Will Wight, New York Times Best-Selling Author of 'Cradle'
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In which we ramble on.
And by we, I mean me.

Wintersteel: New Strategy

6/18/2020

120 Comments

 
This is a copy-paste of a long comment I made on Reddit, so if you've already read it there, you can feel free to completely ignore this week's post and go dream of happy puppies.

I had a whole new, original blog post written out, and then I realized that I was basically saying what I said in that comment using different words. So what's the point?

Earlier this week, I tweeted this: "In trying to write [Wintersteel] more efficiently, I'm writing all the scenes that I would normally skip, cut, or summarize. I really hope this book doesn't suck. If I have to go back and rewrite half the story, I will weep tears of blood."

Here's my fuller, probably-too-long explanation (taken right from my Reddit comment):

“I didn’t have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.”
—Mark Twain

I hate slow stories. I have zero patience with fiction. If nothing happens in a scene, I want it gone.

I can’t stand musicals because, in most musicals, the second a song begins the story comes to a DEAD STOP. You could go to the bathroom and miss nothing but the sick beats.

So in my own writing, I am ruthless about culling anything that I would consider wasted time.

Some might say TOO ruthless.

My normal process is to make a plan, then dive in and start writing it, and whenever I hit a scene where I feel like the pacing is starting to drag, I change the plan.

I either combine scenes so that I’m only writing one where the plan called for three, or I cut scenes from the plan, or I’m halfway through writing a scene and I stop and go back and summarize what would have happened in 2-3 lines instead of a whole scene.

Usually the first scenes to go are the scenes that exist primarily for world- or character-building, or scenes that I thought would just be cool.

For instance, I had a bunch of scenes planned in Skysworn just with the Skysworn going around doing missions.

I had this whole idea in Blackflame for Lindon to interact with Lezaar, the Arelius family refiner, and demonstrate how refining works. And also a sub-plot with Yerin where she found out that a Truegold was going around claiming to be the Sword Sage.

There were Soulsmithing scenes planned in virtually every book, which I either skipped or cut.

Anyway, the point is that this process—constantly planning and re-planning and cutting and skipping and figuring out how to combine scenes—takes a long time.

It usually takes me 4-6 months to produce a Cradle book, and I often have 50k words of waste. On paper it should take me less time and there should be less waste.

So, this time, I’ve written my outline the same way I always do, but I’m hammering out the draft quickly without giving myself time to alter the plan as I go.

The THEORY is that the changes I’ve made haven’t really been improvements, they’ve just been lateral moves that have cost me time.

So now, we think we’ll see one of two results:
1.) A more fleshed-out Cradle book with more words that actually took less time to write.
2.) A bloated, boring mess that loses the snappy pacing I love so much and is in dire need of a critical edit.

I’m really hoping for #1, but even if we end up with #2, we’ll have learned that the “constantly fiddle and re-plan” phase is necessary to my process.
​
-Will

P.S. The idea is that the extra time I save on the drafting stage is meant to go to editing. So if I write the first draft in half the time, I can spend twice as much time as usual on edits.
120 Comments
Caleb Chamberlain
6/18/2020 04:48:30 pm

Actually, my biggest complaint with the Cradle books is that they are all too darn short! I'd absolutely love a sub-plot where Yerin goes and wreaks havoc on someone trading on the Sword Sage's name. And the RPG/crafter-like elements of Soulsmithing are super interesting. I think that all those missing features would add a lot to the books.

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Can't Tell
6/18/2020 05:00:48 pm

I agree. It's the little bits of worldbuilding that I love the most.

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Ryan
6/18/2020 05:11:20 pm

Agree as well

shantanu
6/18/2020 05:45:08 pm

I agree. Even scenes like Lindon picking out an Archlord item from the Ninecloud vault. I want to see the thought process. I want to see the other options and Lindon struggling to choose and weighing. Adding this kind of stuff isn’t filler (it wasn’t in the Heaven’s Glory school) and I’m really looking forward to more to bite into.

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Julia
7/1/2020 01:53:42 am

Yeah, I was so sad, that this scene did not happen! What things are in that Ninecloud vault? How does Lindon find and chose the sword? What are Dross' comments on everything?

I really liked the scene where he got to choe stuff from the Havens Glory school hall.

Drunkan Idaho
6/18/2020 06:09:11 pm

THIS

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John O'Connor
6/18/2020 07:32:19 pm

I disagree with this. I skip past the pages and pages of crafting or skill tree etc some authors fill their books with and I can't see me doing any different. I want a story not a shopping list.

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From the internet
6/18/2020 07:44:12 pm

This... probably isn’t quite the sub-genre for you then. Obtaining/creating loot and character growth/progression is the very heart of progression fantasy and a huge part of “the story”

bha
6/28/2020 06:04:38 am

how are you able to skip pages in a book series like cradle where they barely reach 350 pages? with his pacing you'd probably cut out significant character growth.

as someone who reads quickly when I first started the series my main issue was how quick the pacing was. I've read books like the wheel of time series 2-3 times over and rarely if ever have I skipped pages. my point being those books are an extreme example of pacing being too slow. even as a wheel of time fan I'll be the first to say it.

tldr if somehow will had an extra 100k words of "bloated boring mess" in his next book I'd him for it.

bha
6/28/2020 06:06:08 am

this is awkward my last line should be I'd love him for it. not sure how I screwed that one up

Nicolas Barrera
6/19/2020 03:03:35 pm

I feel we could have used the soulsmithing scenes. In the first book Lindon was all hyped about being soulsmithing and it feels like he just gave up on it without a reason.

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Zexand
6/19/2020 07:27:27 pm

I couldn't agree more. I yearn for more character-building.

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Ross Urrere
6/25/2020 02:16:46 pm

More character dev as well as insights to the Cradle world would be great.

Connor Morrison
6/20/2020 01:20:28 pm

I couldn’t agree more!! I want a 20 hour cradle book PLEASE!! This is by far my favorite series and I’ve been yelling it’s name from the rooftops to anyone who’ll listen. But what makes cradle so amazing is the personality of the characters and 3rd person omniscient insights into their thought processes. I can only see this change following the first result. You’re an artist my good sir!! Let go of the reigns and let the pen fly!! Much love, waiting with baited breath!!

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Emil Bøgh
6/23/2020 01:25:57 pm

I agree it is the small stuff that makes the world and the characters feel alive.

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Istyatur
6/25/2020 07:44:18 am

I also think this could be an improvement; while I like the fast pace I often wish there was a little more world building and character building.

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Jonah Donald Wieber
7/7/2020 06:13:59 pm

I actually would love a longer, more in-depth story. I truly believe that what your series needs to go from really good to incredible is more of the mundane. All of the greatest fantasy and wuxia (LOTR, The Awakening, Coiling Dragon, Nine Star, etc.) show their world in random, seemingly unnecessary, passages; these not only allow for character development and world building, but also give meaning to the conflict. I personally am super excited to see a "boring" book in this series because I know you love action and no matter what, the pace of the book will not be slow.

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Raf the Fan
8/16/2020 06:10:24 pm

Agreed 100%!!

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Ravi
6/18/2020 04:54:08 pm

I disagree, I don't know on what, but I do!

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Nandan
7/31/2020 12:45:12 am

Then you're just being disagreable.
Does that help you feel more alive?

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George
6/18/2020 05:02:49 pm

I would not be upset about more world and character building scenes.

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April
6/18/2020 05:04:14 pm

Forgot to mention this on the Reddit post, but you are wrong about musicals. That is all. You may continue with your day.

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Astro
6/18/2020 06:55:22 pm

He's right about a LOT of Musicals. Not all of them, but a LOT of them,

Musicals and action movies have the same problem - if the action scene, or music number, doesn't advance the plot, then it gets very boring very fast. I don't care how impressive the pyrotechnics are for one, or the singing talents for the other, or the choreography of either, is. If it's not simultaneously advancing the story and characterization, then it's a waste of time and a waste of space.

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April
6/18/2020 08:44:45 pm

I initially meant that in jest, but the action movie comparison is apt. Though I would disagree that a scene has to advance both story and character. Advancing one or the other, or developing setting, may be sufficient depending on genre. And there are definitely some musicals or action movies that have songs or fights (or both simultaneously) that don’t add in some fashion. A lot do though. The way a song adds to movie is going be very different then the way a nice short scene adds to a book though. While the hindrance to the pace may be acceptable for most musicals, Will’s books tend to move a bit faster, if only slightly. (Though I would love to have a song and dance number with Orthos and Dross.)

This part is just taste, but personally my tolerance for *adds minimally but is super freaking cool*, is really high for a song and dance routine, and really low for a chase scene. But that is why they make so many different types of movies, I just happen to be a broadway dork instead of anime dork.

Astro
6/19/2020 07:28:01 am

Yeah, that's fair. And it's definitely to taste. The above comments are my thoughts on Musical and Action movies in particular.

If I'm at the theater, I know what I'm singing up for, so to speak, though the performance ought to still be entertaining. And for books, the pacing is much slower and a lot more meat can be left on the bone. I like the little character moments even if they don't necessarily advance the plot. And 100% agree on the Rule of Cool editing style.

While the spirit of it it worth translating to other mediums, I just feel strongly about Screenplays because you had so little time, you have to make use of every second for plot, for characterization, for theme, for worldbuilding, and preferably all of those at once if you can manage it.

Ryan
6/18/2020 05:10:47 pm

Let's experiment! Mwahahaha

Honestly thought I'd be ok with how you always write books, however, I love to read about the magic system, how it all works. It sounds like I get to read more of that.

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Mike
6/18/2020 05:16:15 pm

So what I am hearing that the next Cradle book is still 4-6 months away. F*&# was really hoping to see it on the page coming out faster. Like this would have made a great Father's Day gift. To myself.

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Dissentinel
6/18/2020 05:17:02 pm

Really appreciating the continued updates and thoughts on your process as a writer. I definitely think more of those "slower" scenes really add a lot to your stories, and I especially would have loved to see them in Traveler's Gate (which we got in the short stories, which were great!) Thanks and best of luck with the book!

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Greg Richie
6/18/2020 05:25:15 pm

I absolutely love the petal to the metal, non stop kick-assery of the Cradle books, but I definitely wouldn’t mind more character or world building or anything like the things you described cutting (Landon with the Aurielius refiner, Yerin going after a false Sage). Let me rephrase. Not “wouldn’t mind” - I would love! 🙌🏼

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Diya
6/18/2020 05:30:36 pm

Consenses is yes we your hardcore fans would like to read more world and charector building scene.
Plus you more than earned a pass for 1 different book if the more causal reader did not like the new style

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JJ
6/18/2020 07:51:04 pm

Are there casual readers at this point? You'd don't get into book 8 without being invested.

I don't know how many would like the change ( I sure would) but I think it's safe to say that close to none would abandon the series if this book turned it to be for the worse.

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Sune
6/26/2020 08:40:50 am

Honestly you don't get through book 2 without being invested like a suit of armor in asylum... Just saying.

Benjamin
6/18/2020 05:34:31 pm

Extras and sub plots sound fascinating. Just the scenarios you described left me wanting to read

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TechnoDecno
6/18/2020 05:35:53 pm

If you do end up cutting a lot of the world building scenes, don't delete them. Save them for a rainy day and post deleted scenes on your blog for us. They obviously don't have to be canon, but lots of us want more of that sort of thing, and also longer books.

And if you happen to have Yerin hunting down someone pretending to be the Sword Sage stashed away somewhere, we definitely want to read that.

I think what I'm trying to say is that we all want to read more of Cradle, no matter what it is for the most part.

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Webb
6/18/2020 07:58:45 pm

TechnoDecno, I agree completely!! I definitely want to see Yerin hunting down a fake Sword Sage.

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Piratemik3
6/18/2020 08:16:58 pm

I think that if we don't get the world building stuff in the next book, a compilation book of Cradle short stories that were deleted from the previous books would be awesome. I would live to see the books be longer as well.

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Yell0wdog
6/18/2020 10:32:33 pm

Omg that would be amazing! Give us a look into other things that were going on during the books. Honestly anything more Cradle would be great.

JustScott
6/19/2020 11:16:34 am

+2. This would be great.

Givonne
6/21/2020 01:34:23 pm

This is a great idea. I’d even like it if they were just stories on the podcast.

Cradle fan
6/26/2020 04:42:10 pm

Id love that tecnodecno, Now we just gotta force will into complying...

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Jose
6/18/2020 05:42:44 pm

Someway or another I'm sure you will end writting a new great book. Even so, my personal opinion is that in the Cradle series its fast and intense pacing is key for the story and chaging that would not be a good decisión. So, if you was to left some scene that would add information or details that would help to understand better the story and the world you have built... that would be wonderful, but if that is not the case... it is just going to hurt the quality of the book.

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Who’s The Boss
6/18/2020 05:48:48 pm

It doesn’t really matter. You’re the story boss, I’m going to buy, read and love whatever you write?

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Nehemiah
6/18/2020 05:58:10 pm

It will be an interesting experiment. There's lots of ways of writing, and lots of ways of bloating or slimming a book. I always go to Zelazny as the height of the economical word - just see how much happens in any one of the first five Amber books, and be impressed.

Of the other hand, that vary brevity that let things happen so fast meant that many details simply weren't included. Maybe that was a good thing, those details weren't needed. But there's a reason that the second five books were very different - they had a ton of world-building in them.

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Benjamin I Espen link
6/18/2020 06:15:24 pm

The key to success is *ruthless* editing. There is nothing worse than an author that cannot cut the ineffective out. I hope for option #2, because that will help you be awesome.

Yes, it is less fun to write, but it is more awesome to read.

The best book Niven and Pournelle wrote, The Mote in God's Eye, benefited from ruthless editing by Robert Heinlein, as shown in the letter he wrote them on the subject.

Heinlein himself could have benefited from this, as you can see if you compare the edited version of "Pursuit of the Pankera" (2020) with the thing Heinlein published "The Number of the Beast" (1980)

In a sense, not even the same book. In another, the same book, with an editor.

More importantly, your pace is fine. You aren't banging out a story a month on a typewriter until your fingers bleed, like some pulp era legends, but you don't need to.

Don't fix what isn't broken, please.

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Duds
6/19/2020 09:55:04 am

Heres my audiobookinspired opinion!
The narrator is so damn good so i want to listen longer to the story.
That means more worldbuilding/cultivation/lindon/yerin/orthos and basically more details in every scenes.
Besides everything you write is so darn good id listen:)

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From the internet
6/18/2020 06:28:19 pm

Personally, I would love more world/character building moments that don’t really lead anywhere. More than that I would like for you to be a little less ruthless on subject matter that is kinda necessary in this genre specifically even if they might slow the story down some. I really felt Uncrowned was missing some of this, specifically in the case of the archlord weapon selection(which you yourself already addressed). I also would have liked to see more done with the Akura. What you did give us was great, I just wanted more, especially the training, which was probably hyped to unreasonable levels after Ghostwater and Underlord. Anyway, my point is don’t be afraid to be a little less ruthless with the scene clippers. Your fans are crazy for the WORLD of Cradle and not just the stories told therein.

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Tyler
6/18/2020 06:51:06 pm

Just save all the bits you want to rip out, and bundle them all together into a story time with dross. "Dross, report, minor events surrounding wintersteel" -Hmmm, really? All the stuff you weren't paying attention for? Well it's not all gold, but... lets talk soul smithing - Dross, in storytime with dross

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Ryan
6/18/2020 07:14:29 pm

Hi Will, love all the books! Keep up the good work! But ti have to agree with the others that I love the side quests and world building!

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Alex
6/18/2020 07:31:32 pm

I felt in this book more then others, the sense a lot of scenes were pushed together. I can't off the top of my head tell you right now, but my first read through it felt a few scenes should have been longer or they were awkwardly cut short. Im excited for this new approach and would love more world building

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Lemon
6/18/2020 10:24:21 pm

I agree with this. Just like all the posts here, I both love the rapid fire pacing, though few of these books take more than a day.

However, my one complaint about Uncrowned is that it was too rushed. With how much happened, especially in the training, I imagine the original pre-cut draft maybe was a slog, but the end result was choppy. Going to say it was the first time I've felt that way. Try new things, but hopefully don't over rotate!

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John O'Connor
6/18/2020 07:39:47 pm

I'd prefer a more focused character driven story though i do love a long book. The last story had way too many POVs from characters I just didn't care about so I probably only read 75% of it once I realised. Stick to the central characters please.

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Me
6/18/2020 08:04:38 pm

I'm both excited and scared to see the result. On one hand if it ain't broke don't fix it. On the other , yes more Cradle

When this series is finished it's going to leave a hole so big in my core I won't be able to cycle.

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Michel
6/18/2020 08:14:03 pm

I would have loved to read all of those cut scenes!!!

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Dash
6/20/2020 04:08:04 pm

I came here to post this exact thing!!! Reading this post made me upset because I wanted all this fluff in the books still.

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Jarthon
6/18/2020 08:24:24 pm

Personally, I believe that analyzing a book, trying to determine what makes it great is an extremely important exercise in futility. What I mean by that is that it does a lot of useful things, but almost never what you are actually trying to do. Every single piece of writing advice ever given is a heuristic, in the computer science sense of the word; it offers an approximation of a solution, but isn't comprehensive or optimal by any means. And this is of course, by design. The number of possible novels, while not mathematically infinite is likely larger than the number of atoms in the universe fed into x^x (depending, of course, on how you define ‘novel’) and to attempt to definitively say why one works and another doesn't to the fickle workings of one particular person's hundred billion neural connections is far, far beyond even the best writers in history.
Now, all that said, I still do believe that I think that type of critical analysis, both of your own work and others’, still results in better books, hence the ‘extremely important’ part of my first statement. Iit occasionally—in moments of epiphany or over years of reflection—results in better heuristics. The three act structure doesn’t really mean much of anything in terms of words on a page; it’s very far from the only good way to write and just about anything can be fit into it with enough mental wrangling, but, nonetheless, it produces books that are better on average than they would be without it. It is, in certain cases, a useful approximation. A good heuristic. Much like yours.
All of this rambling, is mostly to say that whatever process of reading and writing and thinking and living that you have done has produced a heuristic—an estimation of what will produce a good book—that is far superior to most humans. Unless I’ve been seriously underestimating the denizens of your blog, it is better than mine or any of the other commenters by a significant gap. So I hope I’m not alone in saying that we’ll trust you on this one. Whether you’ve come up with a new strategy that improves your writing or drags it down, none of us are more qualified than you to judge. I’m sure this was the plan all along, of course, but (despite our many conflicting pleas and demands in the endless comment wars :-) when the book is finally finished, all I ask is that you read it one final time and decide for yourself whether the new heuristic that you’ve developed is good or bad for the books. You have proven every time you release a book that no one is better suited to do so.

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Jarthon
6/18/2020 08:27:37 pm

Also, because I somehow didn't mention everything in the massive wall of text above, your writing speed is frankly astounding. The fact that the draft is 50 percent done is unbelievable, so I don't think anyone really would have much to complain about even if the new method pushed back release by a few months ;-).

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Ian
6/18/2020 08:49:46 pm

Wight we love you ..I really didn't think of all this stuff about cut scenes until you mentioned it. All I know to do is gorge myself and enjoy. Well the thing is we all fell in love with your style from the beginning so I don't think you need to change anything in the way you write or things you include because I believe it's you who has the stuff to write so it's up to you cook it for us........so personally I'm taking nothing or adding nothing though I wouldn't complain if the book was longer

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Rhys
6/19/2020 12:40:33 am

First off Will, thanks so much for the update and all your work, your books never fail to bring a smile to my face! I think for wintersteel you not only should alow the pace down somewhat i would argue that you have to! *Spoiler alert!!!!!!*


You need to give Lindon time to come to terms with his failure and that will take time but also things have been frenetic and a chance for the readers to see a bit more of cradle would be wonderful. I went back and re-read unsouled recently and the vision that suriel shows lindon still inspires wonder and excitement- I want to see more! Thats one of the things I think we've maybe missed in cradle - we havent seen enough of cradle, i.e. what the cities are like, what normal people do with their time etc...

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Extesian
6/19/2020 04:03:37 am

Cradle: DIRECTOR'S CUT
I can't wait dude.

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Cheese Doodle
6/19/2020 06:40:49 am

Can we get some of these cuts as short stories published to the blog?

You can write the books however you want, and I don't think anyone is going to complain about more content.

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Lucas Rosner
6/19/2020 06:57:38 am

I love that Cradle keeps it moving though. Hoping you can implement your new style but keep the fast paced action/growth of power going.

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Clint
6/19/2020 07:49:49 am

Will, even the slowest scene you could write for Cradle is something that fans would enjoy.
I'm expecting a whole spin off where Eithan is just shopping around for the perfect broom.

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Sam
10/14/2020 07:40:07 pm

Wintersteel handle.... 10,000 top grade scales...hmmm... it does highlight my hair nicely I’ll talk to Juan.

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Emily
6/19/2020 07:53:03 am

I also hate slowness, maybe one of the reasons I love your books. On the other hand excited for a potentially longer cradle book delivered sooner?

And give musicals another chance! In most modern musicals the songs move the plot. Hamilton is nothing but songs.

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Jay K
6/19/2020 07:53:56 am

First I agree with a bunch of posts regarding the need to get inside Lindon's head a little more often. Dross has become that 'inside voice' which means Lindon's lost a little of himself. Would like to hear more. Second, I'm glad we've got a few months until the next Cradle book. I started reading Of Shadow & Sea & will follow the Shera line to the end. Then I'll read Of Sea & Shadow & will follow Calder to the end. That should end right about the time the next book comes out. Just keep going, Will. Follow your instincts. Tell the story that's being told inside you. And if you find in that path you'd like to know more about a thing that leads to some additional dialogue, then it's likely we will, too. Stay well.

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Travis
6/19/2020 08:20:22 am

Since I started using Kindle Unlimited, I've discovered that I prefer well-written. What I mean by that is, I don't care if the author is talking about going to a grocery store to pick up milk or doing their taxes. Just that it is well-written. I don't have numbers of how many other people are like me and personally I'm not really concerned. Publishing companies have churned out a lot of trash that is fast-paced. Oddly enough, the romance novel industry is HORRIBLY GUILTY of doing this. The faster the better. Mystery novels, not so much. People that like mystery novels tend to be constantly looking for tiny clues so they don't care as much if they are reading about the dietary considerations taken by the hero or heroine when presenting their latest dinner party/killer reveal.

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Steve
6/19/2020 11:37:52 am

This kind of begs a comprehensive omni-omnibus super deluxe special edition when the series closes out that includes all of the extra content. Coincidentally, kind of like what you did with the Traveler's Gate Trilogy with the extra side-stories.

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Sean
6/19/2020 04:56:00 pm

I have come to truly love Lindon, Yerin and Eithan. I cannot get enough of them. They are some of my favorite characters of all time (I am 54 years old and having been reading sci-fi and fantasy since I was a teenager). I would buy a story of Lindon doing just soul-smithing with Dross, or a Yerin training montage, or Eithan going clothes shopping! When you love a character, you love them even when they are just being mundane.

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Drew
6/19/2020 06:21:28 pm

Give us what we want. Give us what we NEED.

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Zexand
6/19/2020 07:27:54 pm

Honestly man... I would love to see that extra content. I think that character and worldbuilding would have enhanced each of the books. Sure, I do agree that it may impact the great pacing a bit, but some of the things that hold Uncrowned back, for instance, is the lack of that kind of content.

Great pacing and keeping things moving are great, but some of what makes the best stories are that they also have those moments where things just get quiet. We get to spend time with the characters. And those quiet moments are what make the faster pacing stand out positively, and they give greater impact to the high tension moments, getting to explore and connect with the characters more.

Think back to the Star Wars Original Trilogy. The moments where the movie just got quiet, and we got hooked into the characters. It's part of what made those movies so damn good. Even in what is arguably your best book, Underlord, some of the quiet moments are among the most amazing... think about the scene with Lindon and Yerin in the tent. It was one of the best scenes in the book, in my opinion. Or the moments in Blackflame where Lindon and Yerin are bonding in-between runs of the Blackflame Trials.

So I really encourage you to explore with adding in that new content. you've typically avoided. Overall, I have to applaud your ability to ruthlessly cut what doesn't work, but you might not know what works best as you're writing. Maybe the distance from the scenes you get from finishing the book first, or getting feedback from others, will help you find the best balance for your books.

But all that said, you do you. Your books are fantastic, and I plan to stay a loyal fan.

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Evan Lusky
6/19/2020 08:24:41 pm

Can we get a re-release of all previous books but with tons of the cut material? Throw up a kickstarter to pay for an editor, or I'll do it I don't care. Maybe for people reading the first time through they can read the original for pacing, and then for re-reads we can have the extended editions.

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Rae
6/19/2020 08:53:33 pm

I agree! Would love to read the cut scenes in a blog post or listen to them on the podcast. Your worldbuilding & character development is soo interesting!!

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Madeline
6/20/2020 08:31:17 am

I would happily pay for this.

Especially if it fleshes out more of what's going on with Kelsa. I would almost rather have a novel that sums up the last three years of Kelsa's life than Wintersteel at this point because... this is an Iron who has been barely surviving near death encounters for three years. Even in Sacred Valley, surely she must be close to Jade?

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DG
6/20/2020 05:05:32 am

Monetize it. Publish version of the same book but call it Directors Cut or sell parts are DLCs. We want them.

Reply
Malachi
6/20/2020 12:04:41 pm

You have been my favorite author since House of Blades, which I originally loved for the fast action, funny dialogue, and character development.
However, as a series goes into its 8th book, I would love to get more information about this world’s city’s and countries, along with what the characters are thinking.
I also really hope that Lindon, who has been growing at a fast pace and has only really lost to once since leaving Sacred Valley, will have character development from losing to Yerin. It was my impression that Lindon thought he could beat Yerin and had to convince himself to, so I wonder how he feels after losing.
Sorry for rambling, I love your books and can’t wait for more Traveler’s gate.

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James
6/20/2020 04:24:40 pm

Your books have caused me to develop overwhelming need to cycle... And since I cant, the cthulu beast in my core is constantly screaming for more of your books. I have loved everything you have written and I personally love longer books with more character development. No matter the length you'll have a fan in me.

Reply
Chris N
6/20/2020 06:51:12 pm

Ha, yeah, me too. You know that many of the cycling techniques in the Wuxia/Xinxia genre are based on actual Qigong and Tai Chi exercises? These books always get me motived to go practice. Obviously not going to develop some magical core but they're good for heath. A great book to start with is Dr Yang Jwing-Ming's The Root of Chinese Qigong. Then you can get into some of the others. I'd suggest taking a Tai Chi/Qigong class though if you decide to practice.

Reply
James
7/2/2020 05:18:53 pm

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definitely take a look!

James
6/21/2020 06:19:24 am

Hi Will,

Do it however you need to. It takes a lot of guts to tinker with one's process, but you don't know until you try.

When I am reading your Cradle books, I keep thinking to myself, "I hope he's having as much fun writing this as I am reading it!" These stories are so well-paced, lively, and exciting that I hope they bring you some measure of the joy they've brought your fans.

I selfishly hope you write a hundred of these. But only as long as it's fun.

Reply
Jeremy link
6/21/2020 10:25:23 am

It sounds to me like you just need a Ruth.

Reply
Notice Me Senpaiiii
6/21/2020 03:11:15 pm

In just waiting for an excuse to re-read all cradle books for the 8th time

Reply
Shawn
6/22/2020 09:42:25 am

This guy gets it.

Reply
Sam
10/14/2020 07:42:59 pm

My only reason is I want something good to read.


One question whatever happened to elder whisper he started following Lindon but we never hear from him again

Reply
Bryce
6/21/2020 04:00:44 pm

I can't think of a situation where I'd be upset about getting more to read!
I can understand wanting to rip out all of the "fluff" as it were. I swore off tolken from my only brush with his writing, The Hobbit. 15 pages of smoke rings drove me mad and I hated it.
However what you're saying sounds like additional interesting world building, which I would compare more to the exceptional Ziel short story.
Perhaps, if you're still unhappy with the result, they could be more temporarily culled but collected into an intermediary "book" of short stories that provides additional context and exposition but is also not-necessary for following the primary story.
With how much I've enjoyed your writing I'm sure you'll make the best choice, but I do hope this plan works out how you expected :)

Reply
Keith
6/23/2020 07:03:01 pm

There's a Ziel short story! 😳

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Shawn
6/22/2020 09:41:46 am

Ah so is this why I didn't get to see Lindon shopping around for his new archlord weapon. The vault showcase and subsequent heist from the first book are some of my favourite moments in the series. I admit it's difficult to know which scenes will bore vs excite but likable characters will make any scene work I think.

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Dave
6/22/2020 09:12:05 pm

Will,

You are the captain of this ship and we all book passage very eagerly. I just want you to understand that we all love the world and the characters you have created. That is why we read, reread and keep
Coming back for more hoping for another glimpse of them.

From my perspective, and I believe most...the more details you are willing to share with us about their lives and the place they live is very similar to pictures of our kids in a sense. Each and every one may not be Pulitzer Material. However, they are all treasured, each and every one.

A very long way of saying...I would love to see you err on the side of over inclusion. Particularly as things seem to be picking up pace and will be taking place on grander stages than simply the Black Flame Empire and the Cradle world even.

Reply
Tim C. Johnson
6/23/2020 10:13:50 am

If i might make a suggestion, Keep the ideas and just write short stories and put togeather a "directors's cut" compilation where you keep the books the brisk pace they have, but still have these world building ideas out in the world because I think they would definitely have a following.

Reply
Mike
6/24/2020 12:13:17 pm

I like the quick pacing of the books and look forward to a compilation of short stories sometime after Wintersteel.

Reply
Travis M Johnson
6/24/2020 02:20:10 pm

Hearing about the scenes you cut out made me think there could be potential for some cool anthologies eventually. Maybe themed around the various aspects like Refining where you had previously cut scenes and short stories around that, and one for soulsmithing, etc..

Reply
MitchyGoodness
6/24/2020 03:18:17 pm

Now that I think about it. Will created the compilation of short stories for Travelers Gate called, "The Traveler's Gate Chronicles".

Reply
Rezkin
6/24/2020 03:25:21 pm

While side quests and world building can bring the pacing of a book to a halt, all I could think after reading your post was “send me the notes and thousands of pages that you didn’t publish”. I love this world and just want more.

Reply
Sam
10/14/2020 07:50:02 pm

Yes tell me where to send email or even a self addressed stamped envelope you wrote that information for a reason maybe just to define a charter in your mind but you still wrote it I think it was Picasso that did a series of sketches on a bull it was something like a dozen sketches that soiled down to two circles and seven lines but Picasso showed all of the pictures I can understand not having them in the main books but don’t let them go to waste either

Reply
Rei S.
6/24/2020 07:00:06 pm

I actually love this idea... Especially since it will make the book longer... I always thought that the cradle books were too short.. 😅 But still love reading them... Just wish it was longer.. With more details... It just feels like sometimes it just gets cut and pasted next to the action parts... 😂 But still love it!

Reply
Dave
6/25/2020 12:31:16 am

Somebody shoot me down if I'm in the minority here but I think anyone who's read seven Cradle books and is hungry for more would LOVE all the extra bits, even at the potential price of the pace. Sometimes it feels like there's a whole world we're not seeing; like how Lindon made the turtle shell shield in Uncrowned. The last time we got a peak at some serious, fleshed out, soul-smithing was when he made his awesome arm in Skysworn or maybe helping Dross in Ghostwater. How did he make the shield? Is it awesome or just something he threw together for a minute? It kind of just appeared, which worked just fine in my opinion but it would be so cool to get those kinds of details (for everything, not just soul-smithing).

Also is anyone else low-key shipping Dross and Little Blue as a couple?? No? I'm weird? Apologies *bows* 😅

Reply
Pat
6/27/2020 11:15:33 am

It's great to hear Will that you're still looking to evolve and improve as a writer. I was lucky enough to discover Travels Gate soon after you published and have enjoyed seeing you grow as a writer with every new release. I, and many of my friends, consider you our favorite "popcorn read" author. You really excel at creating books with quick, action packed stories.
In my opinion, your next big step as an author, will be when you get a bit more comfortable with the "boring parts." I don't think anyone wants you to change your style and write much slower books like, say, Robert Jordan. Jordan could write for pages about the temperature of the room and how his characters were coping with the heat. Still, I think many of your readers are craving a bit more character development and context in the Cradle Series. Without sufficient backstory and character interaction between fight scenes, characters like Mercy and her brother (Fury? I can't remember his name at the moment since he never felt like a developed character to me) start to feel a little shallow.
Cradle has been a great series and you can definitely put my vote in with the fans who think you can spend a few pages on backstory and context without ruining the book. I would love to get to know the side characters a bit more and get away from the feeling that they are only there as a quick side-quest for Lindon to overcome.

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Matthew
6/27/2020 01:37:10 pm

Not sure I'd want a more fleshed out book as I've had great fun reading the series 3 times over, discovering an overlooked bit of information, and debating with friends how it could shape other books in the series.

Releasing unabridged versions AFTER the final book would be welcome

Reply
Amanda
6/27/2020 01:52:49 pm

You do you. I love the cradle series. You're doing a great job with it, and I won't complain about more story. Go for it!

Reply
RK
6/28/2020 05:19:20 am

If this means we get the next book that much sooner then please definitely take this route...
(And I would love to have a more fleshed out story with more world and character building)

Reply
Vince
6/28/2020 11:02:30 am

„So, this time, I’ve written my outline the same way I always do, but I’m hammering out the draft quickly without giving myself time to alter the plan as I go.“

Why? All I can tell you is that I love the cradle series and that the time between each book so far was fine and actually quite impressive. Don‘t change your process (unless you feel you really must, for you).

Reply
kris
6/29/2020 07:42:07 am

"I either combine scenes so that I’m only writing one where the plan called for three, or I cut scenes from the plan, or I’m halfway through writing a scene and I stop and go back and summarize what would have happened in 2-3 lines instead of a whole scene."

This explains a lot of the errors in 'Uncrowned'. Specifically there a LOT of places where the timeline doesn't match up. At first I thought you were writing scenes individually, then stitching them together and adding in filler as needed; however after reading the above I understand better how it went so horribly wrong in places.

Not that my input matters, but I absolutely agree with the new process you're trying. If you don't mind a suggestion, this is where an EXTERNAL editor may be useful. Someone that can view your work, and suggest sections that can be cut, ones that just need some editing to include and ones that should be saved and expanded for inclusion as a short story or something similar. I'm thinking of how Eric Flint did something like this in his '1632' series. Alongside the main books, he also published books of short stories that took place concurrently with the main story. Granted those short stories were written by fans, but the same idea could work for you. It would also provide an additional revenue stream between books. It should theoretically be easier to put together a collection of short stories based on material you cut from the main storyline than to write the next book in the series.

Reply
Rezkin
6/29/2020 10:24:58 am

Pretentious dribble. Would have been more direct for you to say “please recognize my superior understanding of literature “. Not that my input matters.

Reply
kris
6/29/2020 03:07:02 pm

No, it would have been more direct to say that I'm not paying money for another book full of fucking errors. 'Uncrowned' was a terrible book with some great individual scenes.

I've purchased every one of Will's books, including a half dozen physical copies of 'House of Blades' that I left in USO lounges and youth hostels across the country. When they were $3 each I might have chalked up mistakes to a self published author and moved on. At $7 I damn sure expect an author to make sure his autocorrect doesn't completely change the meaning of a sentence. Of the dozen friends to whom I've recommended the Cradle series, NONE of them liked 'Uncrowned'.


Rezkin
6/29/2020 08:00:18 pm

There is more humble bragging and posturing in your explanation than befitting such a literary master such as yourself. I’m guessing you’ll buy several copies of the next book. You will do it because they are great reads and because you seem to need something to prop your cries for attention disguised as opinions up on.

Eithan Arelius
6/30/2020 10:16:05 am

@Rezkin. Preach brother, preach!

kris
6/30/2020 10:48:21 am

Ahhh...got it, you're just a dick. You're correct in that I'll probably keep reading the series. I just won't pay for them.

If I were complaining about plot holes, poor character development, or inane dialog then you would be correct in your statements. I shouldn't be surprised at the mischaracterization as it's obvious you have poor reading skills as you didn't notice the parts of 'Uncrowned' that weren't consistent with each other. Or where it's plain that autocorrect chose the wrong word when it corrected a typo. Which are things that should be caught and corrected by a copy editor.

I don't mention any of these issues in an Amazon review because I believe Will is a great author with an amazing story he's telling. I just believe his writing has suffered in the past few books. Reading that he will sometimes change the outlined plan he had for the book on the fly goes a long way to explaining some of the issues. ANY time you modify a plan during execution it can cause things to be overlooked.

I make an attempt to be as polite as I can when providing feedback and I do believe that offering constructive critisism is important, rather than just blind praise. It seems as though a sycophant such as yourself takes issue with any critisism. Considering that 'Uncrowned' has more 1 and 2 star reviews than any other Cradle book, I'm obviously not the only person that disliked it. But go ahead, keep telling the Emperor that his latest outfit is the bestest ever!

Rezkin
6/30/2020 11:36:26 am

So I read that I’m a dick and something about an emperor, but honestly there were a lot of words on that last post. Perhaps you should have changed your outlined plan before posting. Your not wrong I’m probably a dick. I find your post is too much like a football fan telling a NFL player some “much needed” advice. Lots of folks came in here with their two cents but no other sounded like they were trying to have a “teaching moment” with Will. The last book didn’t do as well in reviews IMO because it seemed more like a part 1 of two. Not because the writing style had changed. Ugh, now you’ve gone and made me wordy.

Kris
6/30/2020 05:34:10 pm

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that and I apologize.

I'm also not certain what your exact issue is. I suggested that Will get a good copy editor to review his work to catch some of the mistakes, and that after his description of his process it made more sense how 'Uncrowned' had so many errors . Specifically the largest error that kept coming up was with the timeline being all over the place and not matching up:

Chapter 5 - location 1008
“Only a few days after her father had given him some pointers, she took another look at him. He sat diligently cycling, but even through her owl, she could see that he was out of balance”

The timeline is messed up here. Fury talked to Lindon after he’d completed 6 months of training in only 3 weeks. More importantly, it causes issues with the following scene.

Chapter 6 - location 1047
“Being able to talk to Yerin five times in the last week had made the time between unbearable”

Every other day for a week doesn’t add up to 5 times.
From the rest of this scene, the contest to choose who else will be on the team with Mercy and Lindon is the next day. Which is 9 months from when Lindon first started training. If he received the communications construct a few days after Fury gave him pointers, which was after only 3 weeks of training, then he should have been using it for months to talk to Yerin.

Chapter 8 - location 1440
“It had been wonderful being able to speak to Yerin even every other day, but he had pushed the construct past its original lifespan. It wasn’t meant to last half a year, he was sure”.

See above, This sort of matches the timeline for if Charity gave it to him after only 3 weeks, but doesn’t match the narrative that he’d only had it for a little over a week.

Chapter 9 - location 1741
“He had heard her voice every other day for the last seven or eight months, but now the sight of her crashed over him like a wave.”

Again, issues with the timeline and when he was given the communications construct


That jumped out at me during the first read through. And because the very first part didn't match, every other time it was mentioned it highlighted the error. At least to me.

I'm sorry if what I originally posted came across the way it did to you. It wasn't my intention; however I can't change the way you choose to view what I said. Nor can I change the way Will writes. I can say that in the past 3 books he's had those same sorts of errors with time when switching between characters.

Will link
7/3/2020 06:06:34 am

@kris

This timeline thing was interesting!

I pulled up my Uncrowned timeline, and I compared it against what's in the book, and I figured out what the issue is. Well, what the issues are.

1.) "five times in the last week"

That was just me using "the last week" as an approximation. Of course I know every other day for a week =/= 5, but in my mind Lindon wasn't being precise.

I still should have phrased that better to prevent confusion, though.

2.) It hasn't been just one week, it's been months.

That week he was referring to wasn't the first week, it was the latest one.

I had intended to convey that BY showing that the fight against the other Underlords is the next day, so it's clearly been months, because we established already that this wasn't going to happen for months. And then I have Dross refer to the effect the calls are having on his mentality like they've been going on for a while.

But!

The transition between Charity handing him the construct and then cutting to him talking on the roof suggests that very little time has passed, and then the only specific amount of time I refer to IN THAT SCENE is a week.

I was relying on the fight with the Akura Underlords being the next day to be that concrete anchor in time rather than saying "X months later," and then him being in a different place with different clothes while they all talk as though a lot of time has passed to be subtle details that supported that.

But the quick transition followed by using the word "week" implies that it has only been a week in a way that I didn't realize.

Interesting! I've learned something to look out for! Thanks!

Will link
7/3/2020 05:45:45 am

>This explains a lot of the errors in 'Uncrowned'.

Hilariously enough, it actually doesn't, because...

>At first I thought you were writing scenes individually, then stitching them together and adding in fillers as needed

...this is exactly what I did.

I described this back before Uncrowned came out, but I tried a new writing process for that book. Which was writing the major scenes first, and then coming back in and filling the gaps.

I didn't particularly enjoy doing that, and it didn't really help my ultimate goal of writing more efficiently, so I ditched it and am trying this new strategy with Wintersteel.

Every OTHER book was written in the way I describe here, by reevaluating the plan as I go.

Reply
kris
7/3/2020 12:08:25 pm

@Will

Thank you for explaining your intent in the scenes about the communication construct above. Unfortunately for me I'm very literal minded, so once I read it that one way every other reference to it seemed jarringly wrong to me.

Again, my appologies for the tone of my previous posts. You are an amazing author with an incredible story you're telling. I probably won't be able to stop myself from noticing things that I interpret as issues; however as it seems to only be me that sees them, I'll just shaddup about it.

Thank you again for clarifying the timeline.

Regards,
Kris

Will link
7/3/2020 12:35:34 pm

I don't have a problem with you sharing issues with me, Kris!

When I was scanning the comments and saw your timeline problems, I thought, "Oh no, I might have screwed up the timeline," so I pulled up the document to check.

I have no issue at all with you finding errors or not liking one of my books. Thanks for sticking with me, and I'll do my best on the next one!

Danny
6/29/2020 09:18:20 pm

One of the things I love most about your writing/storytelling is it so concise and too the point. So many authors today fill their books with fluff and fan service... that said, it is hard to say no to more cradle. Like really really hard.

Reply
James
6/29/2020 11:33:47 pm

It’s my sense, and I may be wrong here, that Cradle draws readers forward by teasing future reveals and then dolling them out at a pace that rewards persistence without spilling all the beans. It’s a delicate but artful balance.

So in that light, I’m unsure how page count or extra material will play out if you don’t also increase the reveals in quality or perhaps quantity. Have to maintain the balance.

Reply
Jason Wang
6/30/2020 08:42:34 pm

Lets go Will! First try possibly for a faster release?

Reply
Jeremiah
7/4/2020 05:17:13 pm

Will, I appreciate the glimpse into your writing process. You are, obviously, already an excellent writer, and I support your efforts to refine your craft and workflow. I think you should write the way that makes you happy, and make the work that satisfies you.

That being said, I would very much enjoy learning more about the world, the setting, and the subtler details of the characters.

Also, ferreal, the slow burn of Lindon and Yerin's relationship is fucking killing me. People who don't know how to express their feelings to someone they care about make me want to take a bath in gasoline and light a match while strangling them with their own viscera.

But it's your book, you do you.

Reply
Ibri
7/7/2020 06:56:57 am

Ah that explains why he didn't engage in much soul smithing.

Anyway hope that goes well. I will probably like the result. Pacing is important but some of the small non main story stuff is what gives stories meat for my tastes.

Reply
Matt Nbickerson
8/2/2020 10:51:07 pm

I agree with the snappier pace you're going for. I also think that the extra world building that you cut could make for a great short story compilation and it's something I'd pay for.

Reply
Mel
8/12/2020 09:48:00 pm

Am I the only one that despised the end of Uncrowned.

****heavy spoilers ahead****
**************************************************************************
At least to me. Yirin basically stabs Lindon in the back when she reveals the existence of Dross to North-Strider. All for a fight that Lindon didn't want to have in the first place. Just so that she could crush him in the end. I get it that she *needed* to win the fight. But the way that it all happened was horrible.

**************************

Reply
Knarfster
10/21/2020 05:48:49 pm

Will - "It usually takes me 4-6 months to produce a Cradle book..." George R.R. Falls out of his chair.

Reply



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