Progress Bar?

11/29/2016

Thanksgiving is over, after which I had to respond to the usual deluge of work that piled up over the holiday. I'm finishing that up tonight and tomorrow, so if I haven't responded to your comment or email yet, fear not! It's coming!

One of those tasks that I've been working on is the November short story, which I'm trying to get finished and out tomorrow. Fingers crossed! It's in Cradle, because I wanted to use this opportunity to help me test out some ideas for Blackflame.

And speaking of which, the time has finally come to add one of the most-requested features to the site: a progress bar.

I haven't added one in the past, mostly because it's impossible to keep it accurate. An average week of work for me is chaotic, so a progress meter might go from 17% to 19% to 15% to ???%. Anything I put up will be an estimate by definition, because I don't know how long the book will end up or how hard it will be to get there.

Of Dawn and Darkness, for instance, took me way more work hours to complete than anticipated because it just ended up being harder to write.

Also, there are multiple phases in the writing process. I'd need to progress from 0-100% in planning, then go to word count, then editing, then the second draft, then editing again, and then usually final changes followed by release preparation. That's six phases, and they're very fluid; I go back from the first draft to planning many times.

Now that you know kind of how it works, I'm looking for your input! What should it look like? How and where should I display it? What information do you want to see when you check the site?

I saw one reader suggest marking progress in stages from Copper to Underlord, which was hilarious and appeals to me. But what do you want to see?

-Will

75 Comments

Faris

11/29/2016 09:03:19 pm

I like the Copper to Underlord idea, but one thing that always appealed to me is the last word written, be it "and" or "Elder."

Will link

11/30/2016 11:20:02 am

I've seen that before, but I feel like I would probably just make that up. I couldn't help myself.

The last word was "vigorously."
The last word was "shellfish."
The last word was "genocide."

Madeline

12/2/2016 02:35:09 pm

But see, eventually the book would be published. And people would go "shellfish does not appear once in this book" and "genocidal appears before vigorously" and the pitchforks would come out. You don't want the pitchforks to come out do you?

Easily Amused Eldrazi link

12/1/2016 10:38:38 am

I love this! Both the last word written and the Copper- Underlord system fit perfectly for this.

Ian

11/29/2016 11:00:05 pm

I see no viable way to do a progress bar. I think progress reports would be more helpful. If you are going to do a progress bar, I wish you the rest of luck.

11/30/2016 11:20:29 am

I agree, I'm not going to do a literal progress bar. Anything I did would be an approximation of that.

James A.

11/29/2016 11:33:46 pm

Foundation to Underlord!

Jeremiah

11/30/2016 04:51:22 am

I think you should post it as a relation to the amount of sleep you are getting. The less sleep you get, the closer we are to a book! When you are getting 30 minutes a night, we know release is in a month!

11/30/2016 11:20:47 am

What is this "sleep" of which you speak?

A Siberian Squash

11/30/2016 11:03:36 pm

It's this thing that we try to keep the Elders doing.

Craig

11/30/2016 05:51:34 am

I would suggest something similar to the way Brandon Sanderson handles his progress bar. You indicate you have 6 phases. He has multiple phases in his as well and he updates the phase name as well as the percentage complete based on overall word count he plans on the book being. It doesn't have to be perfect and you don't have to update it daily or anything. It is nice to check in to see all the different things you are working on :). I'd prefer to see Unsouled/Copper/Iron/Jade/Low Gold/High Gold/True Gold/Underlord...Northstrider/etc.? I don't know, whoever is the strongest :P.

11/30/2016 11:21:43 am

My problem with copying Brandon Sanderson is that he is an inhuman cyborg sent here from the future to shame all other writers. He's too disciplined to copy.

12/2/2016 02:38:20 pm

So does this mean your next story is going to be about an inhuman cyborg sent here from the future to write books?

Turcojo

12/9/2016 02:26:12 pm

I would most certainly read a book about a disciplined cyborg sent back in time to write books as a way to adjust the time line in minor ways.

12/11/2016 01:46:03 pm

That sounds like an awesome idea I hadn't even thought of why!

12/14/2016 01:02:55 pm

Wow, that's actually a really good idea. If he uses his knowledge of the future to write the correct books at the exact right time, he could influence people's thinking enough to have THEM change their OWN timeline, which could conceivably be a lot safer than directly changing it himself...

I love it! You should write it!

May

1/14/2017 11:24:11 pm

How does Brandon do the progress bar?

Nikk

11/30/2016 08:18:32 am

Something simple like- Shooting an arrow at a target. That way the arrow can move back/forward fluidly.

Sean K

11/30/2016 08:32:39 am

Congratz again on having a great month of November!

As to the question, I'd be happy just know what phase the book is in. Move past planing onto 1st draft, left us know! That way you don't have do to updates until you make good progress and don't have to worry about doing a ton of updates on a percentage, and thus you can spend more time writing so I get my next fix sooner! (Slaps elbow in anticipation for next fix)

Also, I love calling it the different levels of Cradle for the Cradle books (unsouled to underlord), then maybe call it different for Elder Empire and Travelers gate (Gateless to Incarnation or however you want to call it).

11/30/2016 11:22:11 am

That's a good idea: rename the phases based on the book I'm working on.

Jacob Carasso

12/1/2016 03:39:10 pm

Or maybe have 6 progress bars all stacked for each phase.

Adarsh

11/30/2016 08:47:14 am

Well, i think that you should post progress based on how much of the plot you have written, at least in your opinion, since you would probably have the ending/most of the plot already planned prior to writing. If not, then disregard this post.

11/30/2016 11:22:55 am

I always know where I'm headed, but the problem is that I don't always know how much work is required to get there.

John

11/30/2016 09:23:16 am

I am with Craig. I like how Sanderson does it. He does pre-writing, rough draft 1 to however many he plans, and then final draft and puts a progress bar. That way if you get through rough draft 1, read it and know you need to rework a lot of stuff, you can meter out progress appropriately. I always walk away from his site feeling like I know roughly what to expect about release date. It is also exciting to see progress towards a book I want to read.

11/30/2016 11:24:01 am

He's just way more organized than I am. Copying him feels like I'm setting myself up for inaccuracy, because I'm a lot more "fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants" than he seems to be.

11/30/2016 04:57:53 pm

You fly by the seat of your pants, Sanderson by the seat of his plans!

Peter

11/30/2016 09:23:36 am

Definitely something by phases. I don't think percentages are as important as general landmarks to completion. But maybe phases relative to books you are working on. So Wood to Underlord for Cradle. Progress of chains to the total work for Traveler's Gate. Apprentice to Soul bound for Elder Empire. Or something like that!

Keep writing, your stories are great.

11/30/2016 11:24:45 am

Yeah, I think you're right about the landmarks thing. Whenever I finish a landmark, I check it off, and people have a general idea of where we are in the process.

Dustin

11/30/2016 10:32:11 am

Just something along the lines of what stage you're on in the book would be fine by me. I definitely don't want to see a percentage bar. Percentage bars just tend to annoy me as they are generally meaningless. If you're installing a program and it jumps through 0-99% in a short while, but hangs at 99% for 10 minutes before it completes then it served no actual value.

11/30/2016 11:26:04 am

Completely agree about the percentage. If we went by my own estimates of my progress, a typical book would look like this:

1%
2%
(stays at 2% for three weeks)
3%
4%
15%
20%
15% again
80%
90%
100%

john

11/30/2016 03:10:51 pm

Hey. That status update you just posted is still an improvement. Right now we get 100%. Baby steps Will.

11/30/2016 05:25:52 pm

Maybe instead of a percentage thing, you could give us a "Words Written" thing. Like after week 1 you would say 2000 words complete. Week 2 5000 words complete.... Week 18 270000 words complete. Something like that.

12/14/2016 01:22:49 pm

That would be difficult, because do I write total words written or words added to the book? If total words, then it's going to look like I'm done way before I am, since a lot of the words are either cut (deleted scenes) or didn't go in the book at all (extensive notes).

If words added to the book, people are going to be very disappointed when the meter says -2,500 words that day.

This system could definitely work, though. The problem you run into now is that drafting the book (and adding word count) is only one phase of the process. It doesn't account for planning, redrafting, or editing.

Mick

11/30/2016 07:19:51 pm

I feel like you are getting caught up with concept of progress bars, when you should really be focusing on chocolate bars. Or going to bars and having a drink to celebrate your successes (if you are that way inclined).

12/14/2016 01:23:24 pm

I've been far more focused on the space bar these last two weeks, Mick.

Emily

11/30/2016 10:27:59 pm

What about what phase it's in followed by a descriptor ie
Blackflame
planning: Underlord
OKAK:
draft: getting further from completion as I type

Chris

11/30/2016 10:37:51 pm

When in doubt, follow the Sanderson...

12/1/2016 07:16:23 am

Yep

Gabe

12/1/2016 05:53:32 am

Also like the idea of phases, use from Foundation to Underlord with a legend to explain them.

Blackflame is currently foundation, trending to copper etc.

Willl link

12/14/2016 01:24:26 pm

I wanted a legend too, but I'm not entirely sure how to format it. Right now I'm going with two things vaguely suggesting where I am in the process and one "last word written."

12/15/2016 07:46:19 am

Awesome - thanks for adding this. my thoughts would be a definition for each level

Foundation - book is just starting out have outline
Copper - Have a rough draft well on its way

etc.

Also this would help introduce new readers

12/15/2016 08:36:35 am

I mean literally I don't know where to put it on the page. Below "Amount Complete" and now the whole thing is really big and prominent. But if I put it below the blog archive, no one will ever see it. And if I put it on its own page, I can link to it, but then I have this random page on my site that is just a legend for the progress update.

Ben

12/1/2016 09:14:07 am

I'm glad you liked the power level ranking idea from the last blog post! I think people will be fine with whatever you do; as long as people are reassured that you're working towards the next book in some way, then every other detail is just icing on the proverbial cake.

Since you say you go back and forth a lot, a loose progress bar seems best. The power level bar would work well here- anyone who reads Cradle knows that each successive stage takes longer than the previous, and you could use it as a kind of loose correlation of what you feel your overall progress is. Again, the majority of people will be satisfied as long as they know that some kind of work is going on.

A rough idea would be:

Wood- You at least have the very slightest idea of the book. Hell, the epilogue of Soulsmith is pretty much the wood stage of Blackflame.

Copper- Rough planning, brainstorming. Cool characters, fight scenes, new power levels, locations, etc. All the fun stuff of worldbuilding without the commitment of writing a cohesive story yet (ie the stage pretty much 90% of prospective writers stall on).

Iron- Foundation building. You've got all the fun ideas you want to show in the new book, now you're assembling something that resembles a narrative. You have the beginning, middle, and end pretty much figured. The bones are there.

Jade- Refined foundation. The layout of the story is roughly where you want it to be. You found all the jigsaw pieces, you're ready to start putting it all together.

Lowgold- Start of real writing. Probably the longest step. Still room for errors, sliding back if something doesn't quite work, etc.

Highgold- The main story is pretty much written out, but there's still plenty to do. Rewriting, looking for plotholes, adding scenes or cutting fat, etc.

Truegold- Final polishing of the work, proofreading, beta readers, etc.

Underlord- The book is ready to conquer the pitiful fools who dare to stand in the path of its might!

Again, this is a pretty loose idea. Only you have the best grasp of your process and how to represent it. However, I might add that since each book further into the series is going to get more complicated, feel free to add the next power level each time to the progress bar.

12/14/2016 01:34:21 pm

Sorry about my lack of response, Ben! Not only have I been out of contact, but my email has also been filing every comment reply under "Junk."

It doesn't normally do that, but as a result, I didn't realize anyone had commented while I was gone these last couple of weeks. I was deep into the book, so I wasn't thinking about it too deeply, but I never got an email. Then I check my junk mail, and they're all there.

Anyway, I'm going with something like what you're describing here.

12/1/2016 12:03:28 pm

So where is that short story? Im desperate for something to tide me over until Blackflame.

12/6/2016 08:39:45 pm

Did the November short story come out already?

David link

12/2/2016 01:29:51 pm

Suppose you look back at works of the type you intend to write next. And you estimate how long it took to complete those works, on average. Duration might be estimated in whatever unit of time you like, say, weeks. You let us all know this next work is often a 26 week job. Post a start date. As you proceed, feel free to adjust and tell us a new estimated total. Like 26 weeks won't do it folks, it is more like 34. But keep a running public total of how many weeks have passed since the start date. All this can be done with a flexible progress bar, flexible due to the end date changing in line with your latest estimate. However you go with this, your fans will love info of any kind on what you are writing and how it is going.

12/14/2016 01:32:22 pm

I have that information, but I try to get better with each book. For instance, I know a book in the past has taken me about 800 hours, but only about 400 of that is straight-up writing; the rest is planning, editing, cover design, formatting, marketing, and the various other miscellaneous bits of work that go into getting a book out.

At 50 hours a week, that means roughly a book every 16 weeks (though obviously that can be longer or shorter depending on the book).

Which, since June 2013, is basically what I've averaged. It's been 42 months and this will be book number ten. If I were hitting 16 like clockwork it should have been 10.5, technically, but we'll let that slide.

(Also, if you're following along with the math, you'll notice that June 2013 is actually when I RELEASED House of Blades, not when I wrote it, so I'd be a book behind...except thanks to the 18 short stories I've also written and released during that time, I'm not. They total more words than House of Blades, so I'm right on track.)

So I'm pretty consistent on average, but individual books can vary quite a bit. What I want to get better on is under-promising and over-delivering (instead of over-promising and under-delivering, which is what happens when I do things like saying I'm going to try and get a story out before the end of November). I want to say 20 weeks and then get it done in 16.

But it's a gradual process, and I'm trying to get better.

Каша

12/3/2016 12:41:35 am

A stylish trending gradient pie chart: 1. It accommodates the 6 sections of your writing process. 2. Each wedge trends toward the final color, thus not giving hard percentages but more flexible "ishiness", which also matches your style. (Colors could trend from brown-copper-iron-gold for example). When all 6 wedges are gold, you're done. Also, an ironish-goldish color communicating you're kinda 76-90%ish complete with a phase fits you. 3. If you keep the circular motif for your cover-art, you can use the blackflame cover design as your pie. 4. It's unique and not like, well, you know who's bar.

Lisa

12/3/2016 07:31:41 am

I also like the bar thing. And even Sanderson is not perfectly perfect. He was 30% for months, jumed to 45 %, stayed there again for some time, then he jumed to 70%, after that ist was 97% and now Stormlight is on 99%. And that is totally fine by me. This system appears transparent and therefore the reader likes it. But it dosen't mean every percent has to appear at your homepage. Even Sanderson doesn't know if a book ist 30% or 33% I think. You define how fast you are and you don't have to make linear progress. You just put the bar were it feels right, and you leave it at that value for as long as you are unsure it is more. (so you don't pressure yourself too much)
But if that doesn't feel right for you you can allways keep writing updates. That is totally fine by me - and more than other authors do. Some have writen about bee hives and them visiting Comic Con but nothing about their third book for years in their block which is annoying to say at least.

Patrick R.

12/8/2016 11:30:58 pm

Hey Lisa I'm doing my best here, cut me some slack!

12/14/2016 01:20:41 pm

If that were the real Patrick Rothfuss, I would be incredibly embarrassed. If you're reading this comment, Patrick, please don't read my books. Just...ignore them.

Lisa, what you're describing is the crux of my dilemma. On the one hand, I know what I want when I'm going to an author's website: book updates, book news, writing updates, new stories, and also more book news. That's basically it. If it's not related to their books (or incredibly interesting on its own, like if they just dove into a burning building to save a boxful of kittens), then I don't care.

So I want to keep people updated, but at the same time, I don't work on a predictable or fluid schedule. If I move the word count forward 4,000 words and then cut 5,000, which happens far more often than I want to admit, people will get upset.

If I had been keeping a progress bar during the creation of "Of Dawn and Darkness," for instance, you all would have lynched me. Because I had to essentially burn it to the ground and start over, which is the first time I've ever done that.

That said, I want to get better at transparency and responsiveness. For instance, I should have told you all that I was going to be out of town for two weeks before leaving. That's on me.

Micah

12/3/2016 08:20:56 am

Make a weasley clock from harry potter (http://tinyurl.com/hqnhyg3). The clock hands can point to editing, planning, drafting, etc. Instead of faces on the clock hands you can have approximate percentages of completion. I'm sure this idea wouldn't be confusing for people at all.

12/14/2016 01:16:39 pm

I would love to do that, but unfortunately it would require me to draw. Or to commission a modular graphic, which seems incredibly involved.

jim

12/3/2016 05:37:29 pm

Hey Will, have you read "Dungeon Born"? I thought the ideas were so good/unique that they carried the novel through the garbage writing. Seriously, to think that "Dungeon Born" and "Slime Dungeon" are popular is crazy, because they tapped into a new niche.

12/3/2016 05:41:40 pm

...much like you did with the good english wuxia (I know there were some others, but they were also pretty bad).

12/3/2016 06:30:55 pm

Actually, I liked Dungeon Born. The plot was kinda funny and it was a new niche, but still decent. Plus it was Kindle Unlimited compatible.

12/3/2016 07:30:20 pm

Yeah, I liked it too, but the prose/banter was awful.

Conversations would be so unnatural because the author would use the people to explain concepts. Entire chapters would be used just to explain "classes" of things, and those things would not even make an appearance in the novel. Conversations like "Well, John, there are three classes of so and so, with these characteristics" were really common.

If I had to make an analogy, the whole book was like a tutorial for a game before you actually start playing. It would have an action, then explain that action in an incredibly clumsy way, by trying to pass off the explanations as casual conversations/chapters that felt really forced.

That said, the idea is incredibly unique. I still enjoyed the book, even though I skipped a bunch of paragraphs throughout.

12/4/2016 10:02:28 am

Maybe this was a not-so-subtle request for Will's take on the "born as a dungeon core" genre, because he would be far and away the best writer to try his hand at the series. And if "Dungeon Born" can get 181 reviews at 4.7 stars in just 2 months, I'd like to see what Will can do.

Maybe a short story to see what kind of reception he'd get?

12/14/2016 01:14:21 pm

181 reviews in two months with a positive average is really good; way to go, whoever-the-writer-is!

I haven't read Dungeon Born, but I've read some of the light novels in the same subgenre, and it always strikes me as...incomplete. Like I would be exactly as interested reading the chapter summaries and a list of what powers he gained / what progress he made as in reading the book itself.

As a result, while I've sketched out similar scenarios on the back of a notebook for fun, I'm not sure how I'd go about tackling this subject as an actual book. It seems to be missing too many core features of what I think of as a novel storyline: there's no real dramatic arc, just obstacle after obstacle that the protagonist tackles in order.

I know it's been over a week since you left this comment, but if you see my response, answer this for me: how would you WANT such a story to be handled? What do you like about this subgenre, and what would you like to see more of?

Zach

12/4/2016 04:15:12 pm

I didn't read ALL the comments, so chastise me if this has been said:

Stick with your nature on this, but satisfy the OCD page-refreshers by making a meandering map with fog of war.

Each time you make significant progress, update the image to move the icon down the path. You can put illustrations of big cities, dragons, etc. ahead of behind to indicate the hurdles in your progress and whether you cleared them or not (no relation to the actual story). This means that nobody knows how much is really left to do, but shows them in creative style the trials you've conquered and what's immediately next to deal with.

12/14/2016 01:10:59 pm

That's a great idea, but it would require me to commission a map.

Drainbamaged

12/4/2016 06:22:41 pm

Maybe chains crawling up an image of the book like they would a valinhall traveler?
(Yes this IS a ploy to get you disclose what the cover looks like)

12/14/2016 01:10:41 pm

That would be super cool, but it would also require me to develop a graphic specifically for this.

12/15/2016 09:04:51 pm

Maps...graphics...totally within the skill set of your fanbase! Trouble would be ensuring the individual was willing and able enough to be at your beck and call when you needed an update. So...fair enough; wish list item for some day further down the path 😀

kaden

12/4/2016 08:51:59 pm

The progress bar is a bad idea and will end up in pitchforks and badgers which means you need something like

Phase:?
# of words:?
Last word:?
Short description of progress and future or current obstacles:?

So basically make a mini blog within the blog that will give a progress report whenever you feel like it so like maybe once every other week or so

12/14/2016 01:10:17 pm

I'll still comment on my progress every once in a while in the blog, but I did a version of the progress report kind of like what you're saying: general phase, last word written, and then an ambiguous statement about total progress.

Coffee table you bang your shin against.

12/6/2016 11:34:31 am

Has the short story been released? I joined the mailing list recently, so I'm not sure if it works.

12/14/2016 01:09:31 pm

It hasn't, sorry about that. I got swallowed up in Blackflame.

shantanu

12/6/2016 11:43:28 am

I think progress bars are largely dangerous. Sure they indicate progress but they also build up a frenzy and resentment when the bar isn't moving as fast as some might want (GRR Martin gave up on updating his blog, and who knows... maybe he's given up on ever completing his series). In the end, I'd argue you get the book out when it's ready and irregular/aperiodic updates like "I'm nearly done or halfway done" I think are fine.

More than progress bars, I do hope we'll see another novella/novel in the Traveler's Gate world at some point too. That's not to critique the new series. I'm enjoying both Cradle and Elder Empire.

Now if you're twisting my arm and forcing me to pick up a new installment of Cradle before the holidays or something, I'll tap out and starting reading immediately... I could use more excuses to escape reality.

12/14/2016 01:09:05 pm

I really am considering one more Simon novel in between Traveler's Gate and the new trilogy, so that the new trilogy can start without people having to read the first books. I don't want to keep promoting House of Blades forever, and you always promote the first book in your series.

If I can make it so that new readers can jump in at the beginning of the second trilogy, I'd like to. But I'm not sure how to make that satisfying for longtime readers as well. Which brought me to writing one book for the fans, and then starting a new trilogy in the same world for new fans.

Although that's not a perfect solution either. It's a pickle.

12/11/2016 04:30:26 pm

So, no new blogs for 12 days. That either means he's been superfocused on his work (Yay!) or he's been superfocused on his work. We all know he doesn't sleep by now, so I would like to applaud his dedication to feeding our addition!

Thank you Mr. Wight, for you dedication to your fans!

12/14/2016 01:06:23 pm

I was, in fact, superfocused on my work.

I have to completely lock down for a while if I want to get a lot of work done in a short period of time, but what I need to learn to do is warn you guys ahead of time so you aren't left in the dark when I disappear.

That said, I really don't disappear for any other reason. I don't have a whole lot going on besides writing.

12/14/2016 12:09:01 pm

Can we get a progress bar on the progress bar? Are we at foundation or underlord? lol

12/14/2016 01:03:50 pm

After a long silence, I emerge from the depths like the Elderspawn I am!

Progress thingy is up!

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