﻿Cradle World: The Abidan (Part 2)

Cradle World: The Abidan (Part 2)

3/29/2017

(Reminder: As with all information I share about the future, everything here is subject to change.)

"Always in motion, is the future."
-Yoda

The Seven Judges of the Abidan Court
(The Hound and the Titan)

Makiel, the Hound
The story of each universe is written in Fate.
Fate governs the natural lifespan of each Iteration. It isn't a detailed plan that determines every action of each person, but rather a force like gravity that pushes a world toward a healthy life ending in that Iteration's natural death.
Since humans tie the universe to the Way, people figure prominently in Fate. One individual life is unlikely to affect the destiny of an entire Iteration, but their actions might be a necessary step toward a world's continued existence. Or its end.
   Makiel and the Hound Division of the Abidan supervise Fate. They tap into the Way to read the past and the future, and to deal with any deviations that may jeopardize one or more worlds.
Makiel is something of a leader among the seven Judges, though the Eledari Pact technically gives him no authority over his peers. This is a tradition continued from the original Makiel, who first realized the need for such a pact and organized its creation.
He is rigid and inflexible, utterly dedicated to the enforcement of the rules that protect existence. This mindset has led him to clash with Ozriel, who tends to value his own will over externally imposed guidelines. He has tried many times to recover the Scythe and Mantle of Ozriel in order to pass the title to a different, more worthy bearer, but the Reaper has eluded or defeated him at every turn.

Gadrael, the Titan
The Way is fundamentally a force of protection, a barrier against chaos and destruction. Gadrael is the embodiment of that concept.
   Titan Abidan are the defenders of the Abidan worlds, raising shields and barriers against creatures of chaos and against the enemies of the Court. Whenever the Abidan need a world quarantined, a weapon sealed, a prison reinforced, or an attack turned aside, they call on the Titans.
This generation's Gadrael was rescued from a dying world, then raised as a son by Makiel. His loyalty to the Hound is total.
He once had a reputation as the weakest Judge, due to his lack of skill in any discipline but his own. Other Judges typically have expertise in more than one area; Suriel, for instance, is an accomplished Fox (who excel at instant travel) and an able Spider (who detect deviations in chaos). Makiel could have inherited the post of Razael the Wolf instead, had he desired to do so, and Ozriel was skilled enough to fulfill the duties of any Judge but Suriel.
Gadrael cannot read Fate, he can barely cross through the Way, and his combat power is lower than many ordinary Abidan.
   But his barriers are flawless.
   Gadrael is is the sturdiest protector in existence, a one-man fortress, an immovable object, an impenetrable wall. Worlds under Gadrael's protection can rest easy, but there are thousands of Iterations under the purview of the Judges.
     And the Titans cannot be everywhere at once.

***
I really wanted to say more about Makiel, but...well, I don't want to spoil too much.

Next Time: The Ghost and the Spider

(Fun Fact: The original title for Unsouled was The Fox and the Phoenix.)

-Will

139 Comments

Aaron J.E.

3/30/2017 09:30:30 pm

I know you are hard at work editing, but I appreciate you going out of your way to update, keep in contact with, and entertain your fan base. Keep fighting the good fight!

Will link

3/31/2017 06:04:02 am

Thanks, Aaron! Almost done now!

Lyrian Rastler

3/30/2017 09:58:41 pm

Why the phoenix? Btw, that was a quick blog. Usually u take about a week b\w blogs.

A question- Does Chaos have tangible elements as well, like creatures and stuff, or does it something that occurs when the balance of the way is offset? Also, is there an equivalent of The Way for Chaos as well?

3/31/2017 06:03:45 am

Sort of, yes! We'll go into that in the books eventually.

3/31/2017 06:12:09 am

Also, the "Phoenix" part of "The Fox and the Phoenix" referred to Suriel.

Adaen

3/31/2017 12:15:30 am

These are great Will, thanks so much for providing them so quickly!

I was under the impression that the Judges were solo in their jobs. But it does make far more sense that there are others providing similar work in those fields. And the Judges are the head of each Division.

Now does each division follow the same Path? Or is it simply their path dictates which Judge/Division would best fit them?

3/31/2017 06:08:14 am

Yeah, there are tens of thousands of Abidan, but only seven Judges. That's why Suriel says that normally a deviation like the one on Cradle would be beneath her; normally it would be handled by a grunt in Sector 11.

Only the Abidan from Cradle follow a Path at all.

They decide which divisions you can join by which core skills of Way manipulation you've mastered. If you're a powerful healer but crappy at reading Fate, they won't let you join the Hounds. There's a minimum test for each one, as well as a test for mastery.

That's Gadrael's deal, by the way. Most of the other Judges have mastered several other areas, but he hasn't even passed the minimum requirement for any division other than his own.

He's just THAT good at it.

Latham

4/6/2017 08:07:12 am

Will I know you probably done with the book so I was hoping you can consider answering few more questions:
1. Suriel can manipulate strings of fate (even attaching one to London and forged madra ball) - is that a path of attributes of a path in your design, it seems that Fox clans Elder dreams of return of strategies and sees future ( this makes him connected to the way). Will there be others that can help Lindon learn to read fate from his connection to Suriel
2 if I was Ozriel and knew that other Abidan are looking for me and Suriel is the only one remotely compassionate I would try to sway Suriel to my camp and IF Somehow I, Ozriel learn about Suriels connection to Lindon, I would try to help and influence London from the very first steps along his development. So is it possible that something happenes along this line?
3. So far we have seen London primarily desire to do baby steps but he was the only one observe Suriels supreme powers- so naturally he would try to duplicate those right ? Right? It might bring conflict to Abidan if Makiel will notice that Suriels little protege tries to copy her powers while Ozriel in the shadows helping Lindon and stirring the pot to force the split in the court.I
So unique training along Eithans path? Or talking to Eithan and tell him everything about Suriel?
4. Finally is it 5 or 6 days before Blackflame is coming out?

4/10/2017 12:33:04 pm

1.) I don't understand this question, I'm sorry. Probably not?

2.) It's possible that Ozriel has done something to sway Suriel to his side, but she hasn't seen it yet.

Suriel's connection to Lindon is relatively recent. So if Ozriel does learn about it and start intervening with Lindon, it won't have happened yet.

3.) Lindon is taking baby steps because those are the only steps he can take, but he has seen Suriel. No one else on Cradle has had their eyes widened quite so far.

4.) Lol no.

Tim

3/31/2017 12:50:42 am

How many 'Hounds' are under Makiel's supervision, and how many Titans are under Gadrael's?

3/31/2017 06:08:44 am

Thousands, but I couldn't tell you exactly how many.

There are more Titans than Hounds.

Havoc

3/31/2017 03:06:28 am

If there are just 'thousands' of iterations, and each iteration lasts for trillions of years, there should be billions of years between iterations ending.

What do the Abidan do to occupy their time in between?

3/31/2017 06:03:14 am

I don't think I said trillions, did I? I think I said billions.

Either way, that's how long they COULD last. That's their maximum natural lifespan. It very rarely happens that an Iteration dies of old age, because they're tethered to the survival of humanity.

Most of the time, Iterations only last a few thousand years.

Let me put it to you this way: the Abidan have never shepherded a world from its birth to its full possible lifespan. An Iteration dying when humans die is still a natural death.

Captain Nemo

3/31/2017 05:22:20 am

The posts on the Abdian were a great idea! I really like how you've fleshed out the common denominator among the magic systems a bit more.
I am curious, though, about the specific ways that each magic system relates to the Way. I think you said that the territories were connected to Amalgam and that travelers could enter them through a connection to the Way (more or less). How do intent and aura/madra relate to the Way?

3/31/2017 06:11:43 am

They don't really, at least not in the way you're asking.

You know how each room in Valinhall has some of its own unique rules and powers, kind of like a mini-Territory each? That's because it's stitched together from small fragments, and each fragment has its own different magic.

So every world has a unique magic system. These are the powers of the Iterations themselves, not the powers of the Way.

James A

3/31/2017 07:18:58 am

Hi Will,
I've got to ask. In this sort of multiverse of worlds with different magics, were you influenced by Sanderson at all.

3/31/2017 08:36:33 am

I'm glad you asked that!

I knew everyone would assume I was just doing my own version of what Sanderson's doing, and I'm okay with that. People are going to think that regardless of what I say, and even if I *was* spinning off of his idea, I wouldn't be ashamed of that. It's a good idea.

But honestly, was I influenced by Sanderson's Cosmere? No, not even a little.

I idolize Brandon Sanderson, and I'm not above shamelessly cribbing from better authors.

However, in this case, I had a draft of the Abidan and their structure before Elantris came out. When he first announced his Cosmere, I was initially ecstatic: "Whoa! This is exactly what I wanted to do, and here's a big-time fantasy author doing it!"

...but I was a little let down. His worlds are different planets that are (mostly) in the same solar system, they're not different planes. And it's all predicated on a single omnipotent being shattering into pieces, which...if he's omnipotent, how does THAT happen?

While I'm a huge fan of all the Cosmere books, I'm not really that enamored of the Cosmere itself.

Plus, once I started reading Chinese xianxia novels (on which Cradle is based), I saw that they're practically all set in a vast multiverse. That was the final piece of the puzzle I needed to push me over the edge.

I owe a lot more credit to Zelazny's Amber, Magic: the Gathering, xianxia novels, widespread anime tropes, and the TMNT show I grew up on as a kid.

3/31/2017 08:43:49 am

By “a lot more” I mean “the most.” Those are the sources I owe the most credit to, but of course there are countless others.

Thanks again for asking!

James A.

3/31/2017 08:49:13 am

Amber is amazing, although I've only read the first set of 5. Also, is TMNT teenage mutant ninja turtles?

3/31/2017 09:03:23 am

It is! A lot of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is based on traveling to different dimensions, and I was consumed by that idea as a kid.

...and apparently as an adult too.

Enkidu

3/31/2017 11:38:04 am

I actually don't get a lot of Sanderson from you Will. I think that's why I'm so happy with your works. Its not Sanderson, or Butcher, or any current names on my list. It's Will. Sure, I get a little Zelazny, maybe a touch of Dragon Ball Z/martial arts anime in general, but they're more flavors rather than direct comparisons. I think you do a fantastic job of being original, and I hope you keep doing what you do!

(P.S. BLACKFLAME?!?!?)

Family of Raccoons

3/31/2017 12:00:17 pm

Will, as an avid fan of Sanderson's Cosmere, I wanted to correct something. Based on the charts he released, almost none of the planets share a system with one another.

And as for the omnipotent god, it is implied somewhere in the stormlight archives that adonalsium (think I got that right) let himself be killed, for unknown reasons.

3/31/2017 12:52:18 pm

Really? I thought it was implied that at least Scadrial and Sel were in the same system.

Could definitely be wrong on that. Like I said, I'm a fan of the books, but I'm not the world's biggest fan of the Cosmere itself.

It IS implied that Adonalsium chose to allow itself to be shattered, but I still don't love it as a mechanic for seeding magic throughout the universe.

First of all, because an omnipotent being creates all sorts of story problems (mostly stemming from "Why didn't it see this coming and choose a different future?")

Omnipotence and infinity always make stories less interesting to me.

Second, all the magic coming from a single fractured god-source means everything supernatural and interesting in the universe stems from one single event, so it must have been a pretty boring place before.

Roshar was earth-like before the Shards fell and generated the highstorms, and a lot of the other planets are basically standard Class M planets too.

That fact is always kind of disappointing to me. Like the fact that the Shin live in a place that is sheltered from highstorms, so it's effectively Earth.

It implies that beneath a thin layer of cool stuff happening, it's just regular old boring Earth beneath.

That's my preference talking, obviously, but I like worlds that are strange and weird and interesting all the way down.

Anyway, that's why I was a little disappointed in the mechanics behind the Cosmere.

...none of that is a real criticism, to be clear. It's just my personal taste. This is like a Star Trek fan quibbling about the font used on a single monitor in the background of the Enterprise's bridge.

Nocturniquet

3/31/2017 02:35:27 pm

So by 'powers of the iterations themselves' we can sort of take it that you mean that each universe has slightly different physics which enable that magic system to function as it does.

If you leave your iteration, your powers should cease then, right? You would have to learn the new system's magic...

3/31/2017 07:37:31 pm

RE: Nocturniquet

In some cases, yes.

Anything you learn to do that manipulates the power of the world no longer functions outside of that world. So a Traveler wouldn't be able to open a Gate when they're in another Iteration, nor would a Reader be able to sense anything special (because Intent is no longer a fundamental force of the world).

However, any intrinsic powers stay intact (for the most part). The dolls would still be able to talk and read the wind, Awakened objects would retain their properties, and sacred artists would still be able to use most of their techniques.

Diego link

4/1/2017 08:47:33 am

And now I understand what u meant by Cradle prepares people the best for inter galactic battle.
Basically their powers work in almost all, if not all, iterations so they would never be completely defenseless in a strange world with strange magic.

God of The Tower

4/2/2017 04:18:14 pm

Actually @Will Adonalsium is NOT the creator of all magic in the cosmere Brandon has said this himself and is proven in sixth of the dusk [short story ] Brandon says a number of planets have there own power source and all of the planets in the main story were pretty much created by the ppl who picked up shards of Adonalsium. It also seems like the cosmere is sorta diff than most realities in that Aldonalsium seems to be an object of power like a cosmic cube or something similar...

4/2/2017 04:39:38 pm

@God of the Tower

I'm sure you're right; like I said, I'm no Cosmere scholar.

I'm just telling you my personal opinions on the Cosmere system so you can understand a little bit more of where I'm coming from.

Surely Sixth of the Dusk takes place post-Shattering, doesn't it? In which case their magical birds could certainly have been created by some interaction of Shards. Word of Brandon may have contradicted that, though.

@Diego

Yep, that's it!

Family of raccoons

3/31/2017 05:59:14 am

So, we have the Pheonix, titan, reaper, ghost, hound, spider, fox, and wolf.

Could the final entity be....... The raccoon?

Wait a minute.

3/31/2017 06:01:44 am

Wait wait wait. There are seven, not nine!

Did Will count wrong here? And why did I think there were nine?

3/31/2017 06:19:09 am

Hahaha, I was wondering when someone would notice. I thought it would take longer.

There are eight Judges in the Court of Seven. It's been a real headache for them.

(There used to be nine, but Garbagiel, the Raccoon, was exiled and beaten for crimes against decency.)

I was going to wait until a few posts from now to point this out, but since you've already counted: Ozriel is relatively new. None of the other Judges were around when the Eledari Pact was created; they're the third to bear the mantle of Makiel, or the fourth Razael, or whatever.

This Ozriel is the only one there's ever been, but he didn't show up until the middle of the previous Suriel's generation. Before then, the Judges had to destroy worlds the old-fashioned way (by depopulating humanity), so it was messy. They could only keep a few hundred worlds protected and controlled, because chaotic fragments were so much more common.

But with a clean way to dispose of infected or expired worlds, they could expand their influence and protection more widely.

Reddan

3/31/2017 11:14:16 am

So Ozriel climbed his way up to the heights and provided something the Abidan, powerful as they were, didn't already have. Bet that's going to be interesting to learn about.

Did Ozriel vanish because he was angry the Abidan wouldn't change the number on the letterhead from 7 to 8?

3/31/2017 11:48:32 am

Yes. He's a notorious stickler for accurate categorization.

3/31/2017 06:03:49 pm

Wow talk about big-egos. Your basically saying Ozriel joined because he thought it was a way (no pun intended) to help more people and he pretty much did his job much better than anyone else.
Now that he left they are out to either recruit or kill him because he didn't agree with all they were doing?

3/31/2017 07:49:06 pm

Pretty much. From Ozriel's perspective, he joined because he felt a personal responsibility to use his massive power for the benefit of as many people as possible, and the Abidan rules are preventing him from saving people. But they won't let him look for another, better way, even though he's shouldering the heaviest burden out of any of them.

From Makiel's perspective, Ozriel is so arrogant that he believes he knows better than everyone else, so he's abandoned his post and left millions if not billions of people to die.

Suriel's kind of caught in the middle. On the one hand, she agrees with Ozriel that there must be a better way to do things. On the other hand, he actually HAS risked the lives of everyone living in an Abidan-protected world.

***
I need to cover this in another post, but just to be clear, here's the reason why it's a big deal that Ozriel left, even immediately.

Without Ozriel, the Abidan can handle a few hundred worlds. It takes hundreds of Abidan per Iteration, because they're constantly surrounded by corruption and chaotic fragments.

WITH Ozriel, they've expanded to several thousand worlds. Now it only takes a handful of Abidan per sector, because there are very few chaotic fragments and the corruption is easily handled.

With corrupted worlds destroyed completely, there are many fewer unhealthy fragments, so everyone's jobs become easier and they can spread themselves thinner.

But now that they've expanded so far, Ozriel is the cornerstone of their whole operation. With him missing, they've now got WAY more worlds than they can handle.

...I need to come up with an analogy for this. Maybe weeds in a garden?

Illar

4/1/2017 11:05:40 am

So the Abidan are trying to clean the multiverse with mop and bucket while Ozriel has an industrial pressure washer? And he maybe wants to figure out how to keep the chaos from being tracked in all over the nice clean multiverse?

3/31/2017 06:53:18 am

Will, are the seven Judges and the various members of the Divisions bound by Fate as well.
If that is the case, doesn't that mean that Makiel has power over all of them.
Or, does one, by joining the Abidan, get the keys(figuratively speaking) to free oneself of the Shackles (Fate)?

3/31/2017 08:42:13 am

Fate guides the actions of the Abidan as well!

This was actually something of a revelation to them, as they thought they had moved beyond Fate's reach when they left their Iterations. However, even the Abidan have a Fate.

Makiel doesn't have power over them, exactly. He doesn't control Fate; that would be like trying to manually control gravity.

He and his teams *manage* Fate, making sure people don't screw it up. If humans didn't have free will, there would be no need for the Hounds. But because they do, they can act in ways that might (generations down the road) send Fate spinning out of control.

Hounds look into the past and the future to determine the chain of events that might lead to this sort of thing happening, then they take action to prevent it.

Scotty

3/31/2017 10:41:54 am

Will the hounds be looking into lindon then at some point??

3/31/2017 11:49:01 am

There's no way I can answer that question. Yes or no, either way is a spoiler.

4/1/2017 11:17:07 am

What would a "screw up" be? Wouldn't anything that someone did be part of that world's natural evolution?

4/1/2017 08:00:40 pm

@Illar:

No. That's effectively the premise of this whole concept: that Fate can be defied, eluded, slipped.

Now, waking up and ordering a sandwich for lunch is never going to send your world into a downward spiral because you were destined to eat pasta and you have confounded the powers that be.

Resurrecting a certain dead person, trying to invent time travel, drilling a hole in the universe, looking into the future and working very hard to subvert what you see there, THAT is the sort of thing that knocks Fate off-course.

Daniel

4/1/2017 08:29:31 pm

You know all this talk of fate reminds me of the game kingdoms of amalour where you play the one character in existence that has slipped free from the bonds of fate and use your fatelessness to save the world.

Rhys

4/3/2017 03:45:56 am

In response to Daniels comments about fateless heroes, the one I always think of is sparhawk from edding's the elenium.

Patrick

3/31/2017 06:57:21 am

I have to say.....f*ck this is cool. I absolutely love the world-building and premise behind this. Thanks for taking the time to do these Will, it's a real treat. Looking forward to Blackflame.

3/31/2017 08:42:34 am

Thanks, Patrick! I have to say, I'm really excited for where all this is going.

Adarsh

3/31/2017 07:55:40 am

So I know that what Li Markuth did was a violation of Fate, but would it also be a violation of fate if in some super high-tech world some scientists accidentally create a breach between iterations and wind up on Cradle or Amalgam? OR does it only count if it was your own personal power?

3/31/2017 08:44:13 am

No, that would absolutely count. In fact, something like that is usually what happens.

Luke

3/31/2017 09:09:44 am

Cool! You should think about writing one of your Cradle short stories centered on the daily lives of Abidan, just so we can get a better idea of the differences between what it is like to live in an Iteration compared to living as an Abidan, etc.

3/31/2017 10:06:15 am

But that's where the Cradle series is going, Luke! I can't ruin that experience early.

Tacroy

3/31/2017 04:52:04 pm

Huh but then at what point does something become a violation of Fate?

3/31/2017 07:53:58 pm

Whenever it becomes a violation of Fate.

Seriously, you have to look and see where Fate is headed in order to know whether something is a violation or not.

There are some clear-cut infractions, like when ANYTHING from one world crosses over into another. That's two worlds that were never supposed to interact, and they're interacting.

But for the most part, it's very situational.

However, within a single world, you can't ACCIDENTALLY violate Fate. You have to be intentionally working against the forces of the rules, like trying to make yourself immortal, or tampering with time, etc.

Riley

3/31/2017 09:28:42 pm

Wait... if anything moving from one iteration to another is a violation, then how does one ascend from their world? Is that an exception to the rule since Sanctum has knowledge of the Way, the Abidan, and other iterations?

4/1/2017 07:56:43 pm

Riley:

If everything goes to plan, we'll eventually get to see the ascension process firsthand! All those questions will be answered in time.

NItin

3/31/2017 09:56:00 am

Did Ozriel forge his own Scythe? It was mentioned in first book that he managed to touch the way without even ascending. Atleast his fury did. Was he at same cultivation level as Sha Miara?

Was Sha Miara born with enough madra to qualify as true gold or something considering she is only 12?

3/31/2017 10:05:44 am

Sha Miara inherited power that the most talented Truegolds would have to train their whole lives and exhaust fortunes to achieve. That's the base level of power she'd have if she were never taught anything about the sacred arts and never trained a day in her life.

The story about Ozriel's Scythe is going to have to wait until much later, I think, but he was a legendary Soulsmith of his time.

He did reach the same cultivation level as Sha Miara and the rest during his time on Cradle, yes, but he would have been considered a freak even among people of that tier.

Timmy

3/31/2017 10:51:24 am

Wait, so who is Sha Miara? Is she the princess that Suriel showed Lindon? (Sorry its been a while since I have read cradle)

3/31/2017 11:21:40 am

Timmy, you recalled correctly. She is indeed the girl Suriel showed Lindon, though I'm not sure if she is a princess. I thought that she is the queen of the Ninecloud Court.

Will, how old is Sha Miara.
It would be a bit too extreme for her to be 12, and yet be amongst the strongest on Cradle.
Suriel, one of the strongest person in existence, said that she didnt even reach that level in 30 years, yet a girl is supposed to have managed to achieve it. Wouldn'T she have the potential, then, to outclass the members of the Abidan, given enough time?

3/31/2017 11:49:33 am

Suriel isn't from cradle though remember? She's from sector 16(which we know literally nothing else about)

3/31/2017 12:16:58 pm

I didnt' say that Suriel originated from Cradle. I merely used the time she needed to reach the strength of Sha Miara as a standard.

3/31/2017 12:30:03 pm

I don't remember how young she is without looking it up in my notes, but no older than 15 or so.

What's wrong with that?

Sure, she's decades ahead of Suriel. But in the grand scheme of things, there were a lot of people among all worlds who were decades ahead of Suriel at some point.

A lot of people have the potential to become Judges, but very, very few ever make it that far. There's a long way from the Ninecloud Court to the Court of Seven.

Garrett

3/31/2017 03:52:55 pm

Wait, so is Ozriel the Soulsmith that created the spear that was locked inside the transcendent ruins?

3/31/2017 07:54:26 pm

Maybe. Who knows?

3/31/2017 10:13:05 am

So it seems to me that the other multiversal powers are actually doing more to stabalise iterations just by allowing people to cross from one too the other and share tech because that would push population higher and allow them to stabalise iterations by bringing in more people.

3/31/2017 01:06:40 pm

Not quite! I hope to get into the mechanics of this in a Suriel storyline at some point, but basically unsupervised inter-world interaction has consequences that spill over into other worlds. THOSE Iterations might be better off, but they're shifting consequences onto other worlds.

Great for you, bad for the neighbors.

However, that's not to say that the Abidan have it all figured out. There is a reason they do what they do, but they can still make mistakes. One of the reasons Ozriel left is that he couldn't stand their policies; there's a lot of gray area between "not interfering with a world at all" and "controlling every aspect of its development."

If you'll recall, when Suriel shows up to Cradle, she considers saving some random people from harm, despite the non-interference rules. She could potentially have done that by descending and then using no more powers than an ordinary resident of the world.

By acting within the rules of the world, she's not interfering with Fate too much and not violating the Pact.

She could NOT have waved her hand and cured cancer over the whole planet.

Ozriel's argument is that they should be saving as many people as they can, as their power allows, even to the point of weakening the restrictions of the Eledari Pact. There are many worlds that he wouldn't have had to reap if the Pact would have allowed him to end a war, or destroy a particular demon, or eradicate a plague.

...boy, I've said too much. Quiet, Will.

3/31/2017 02:16:40 pm

Hmmmmm. That's quite intriguing will. Seems like just an exchange of tech could easily exponentially increase the populations of various iterations and stabilize them without to many people going back and forth. Unless that destabilizing effect is based of something more obtuse than that.

3/31/2017 07:57:13 pm

A limited version of that is something that Ozriel might argue for. If there's a plague that's about to wipe out an entire planet and someone in another dimension has figured out a cure, why shouldn't we give them the cure? No magic powers necessary--we're giving them something they COULD have figured out on their own, but didn't. The Iteration gets to live at least a few thousand more years instead of getting Reaped.

jim

4/2/2017 03:28:53 pm

Not sure how I feel about a Suriel storyline in the Cradle series...

4/2/2017 04:41:24 pm

I'm not sure what you mean, Jim. There's already a Suriel storyline in the Cradle series.

4/2/2017 10:17:19 pm

Hey Will I don't quiet understand a part of this deviating from fate business. (I hope u don't take it the wrong way) I mean u mentioned that new iterations are formed from fragments drifting in the eternal nothingness or whatever.

Okay now these iterations are devoid of human life at first. (So their original fate is to actually devolve into chaos)

Then the Abidan sort of place humans in them sort of like pilgrims to that iteration, isn't that in and of itself a deviation of fate? Not only for the world, but for those people whom were taken there as well? (I imagine they have to terraform the planet first to be suitable as well).

The only way i see it being part of Fate is if the "Way" kinna speaks to the Abidan of whom to take and from where. Again i hope u don't take it the wrong way or if u have another explanation ready. :D

4/3/2017 03:53:29 pm

Well, they don't usually have to do much terraforming. The fragments tend to combine into a single, inhabitable, central planet, and then the Iteration spreads out from there into a full universe. Like a seed growing.

When a world is born in this manner, it's not yet tethered to the Way. And therefore not yet bound by Fate.

Only when the people show up does the world start to develop a connection to Fate at all.

3/31/2017 10:16:04 am

Is there room in the willverse for an iteration that is populated entirely by nonhuman intelligence? And what about AI? Do they add stability to they way or do they not count cause they are "artificial"?

3/31/2017 01:19:49 pm

This is one of the sacrifices I had to make in designing the Willverse, which I still think is a hilarious name: truly artificial intelligence doesn't exist.

In theory, as we understand intelligence in our world right now, we should soon reach a point where artificial intelligence starts increasing exponentially until it changes the world entirely.

Well, in the Willverse, developing civilizations eventually discover a hard limit to artificial intelligence. The same X factor that ties the Way to human consciousness also means that non-human entities can never be truly sentient.

A pure computer in the Willverse is never going to beat a really good Turing Test.

However, you CAN manipulate human consciousness to get around the intelligence barrier.

A Presence is an AI built out of what you might call human souls.

***
I had to make this decision because, if hyper-advanced AI is possible in this multiverse, then *that's* what would be running the Abidan. Not the Judges. Human decisions would be overrated, since an AI could come to the optimized conclusions a billion times faster and without emotional bias.

It also kind of fits the premise of a multiverse where human will is intrinsic to existence. If it's that fundamental and important, then it can't be faked.

Does mean that existential questions about what it means to be human are easier to answer, though.

(You also asked about nonhuman intelligence; bottom line is, non-humans gain intelligence by stealing or copying or otherwise transferring it from humans. So as they become more intelligent, they also become more human.)

3/31/2017 02:06:39 pm

Huh. Well I'm glad that you wove a reason as to why AI doesn't work in your universe. Makes you greater than most in that regard.

3/31/2017 08:08:13 pm

Years ago, I got to a point in this system's development and I realized I was pretending they didn't have AI. Which they would obviously have, as advanced as they are.

So I got down into it and realized that having AI violates the one core tenet of how this multiverse works: humans are important.

"Humans are important" is a key rule in the Willverse, because I wanted room for as many characters as possible. I wanted it to be people from the ground up, so that when you get up to the very apex of the universe (the Judges), you're not dealing with a bland personification of the will of the universe, or a hyper-advanced AI, or an unknowable alien god. You're dealing with a person, who might be incredibly advanced and powerful but is still human deep down.

So instead of humans being one sentient species on one insignificant planet in one insignificant system in one insignificant galaxy in a vast, uncaring universe, we are (in my world) a crucial part of the machinery of reality.

Many stories PRETEND humans are important, but how many of them hard-code it into the way the universe functions? HUH? HUH!?

...anyway, since AI makes humans less special and unique, I built a set of rules that precluded AI. Sad to see them go, but I think it makes room for some interesting stories.

3/31/2017 08:15:39 pm

For clarification:

--When I say AI, I mean advanced sentient AI. Obviously they do have some level of artificial intelligence.
--Here's the REASON I wanted all those humans: characters are what make a story interesting. An AI isn't relatable, and gods don't have flaws.

I wanted to be able to give every significant force in this multiverse a personality, a backstory, and a relatable motivation.

Not to mention cool powers.

...plus, it's kind of neat to have a universe where everyone, even on a cosmic scale, earned their way there.

Ruan

4/2/2017 02:43:46 am

I like the idea of humans being a fundamental part of the universe. I also like your reasoning for a universe without true AI, despite being super advanced. It reminds me of Dune but hopefully with less space drugs. It's also pretty cool that the reason for a lack of AI isn't simple as "Yeah we are afraid they destroy us and stuff." It shows you put some thought into it.

3/31/2017 11:07:48 am

Last question for now. Would a powerful enough remnant be able to operate like a human since it would retain most of its memories? Or asked another way, will we ever just see a remnant wandering around just minding its own business and interacting with other humans like it was still alive?(albite less powerful)

3/31/2017 01:22:36 pm

Yes, to both.

Remnants can cultivate, and as they do, they become more intelligent...and also more human.

That's why they crave human madra just as much as they do vital aura.

Sufficiently advanced Remnants are effectively weird-looking people. However, they are DIFFERENT people than the ones who died and left them behind.

We'll get into it.

3/31/2017 02:07:42 pm

Awesome! Can't wait to see that:)

4/1/2017 08:43:22 pm

Has a sufficiently advanced remnant ever ascended off of cradle? Cause that would make an awesome story.

3/31/2017 11:57:40 am

Got some more silly paths if you want them.
Path of the warring flamingos
Path of death warmed over
Path of the falling elephant
Path of the T-Rex arms
Path of the sea turtle

Guy who plays Zelda too much

3/31/2017 12:21:03 pm

Nice job Daniel! I like these paths....in particular the path of the T-Rex arms.

3/31/2017 10:52:34 pm

The path of hot wax
The path of parched water
The path of dark light
The path of emerald immolation
The path of frozen lightning

Garbagiel the raccoon

4/3/2017 06:02:16 am

Path of many roombas

4/3/2017 11:59:27 pm

Path of grouchy cats

3/31/2017 01:14:06 pm

Reading back through Soulsmith, Gadrael as Titan explains the buckler-type weapon and why he put the barriers around the Limit-Harrow collision himself.

I thought Gadrael might be the Hound after reading Soulsmith the first time, because Suriel thought of him as "a loyal dog" with Makiel in charge.

3/31/2017 01:24:18 pm

I know, I actually tried to change the name of the Hounds because they're not the loyal followers at all, but uh...well, I couldn't think of any totemic animal that suited their role as detectives.

Owls would be pretty weird, and picking Bats would effectively mean that I've created a universe with Batman in charge.

Come to think of it, that would be awesome.

3/31/2017 02:10:45 pm

Speaking of batman you should listen to the song Mind of the bat by miracle of sound.

3/31/2017 07:24:32 pm

I think the Hounds make a lot of sense - the tie-in to things like bomb- and/or drug-sniffing dogs and especially bloodhounds is pretty powerful, and mirrors the Hound's task of searching for deviations.

Re: Batman - is Makiel perhaps a rich playboy who's never been seen in the same room with a certain darkly clothed hero?

3/31/2017 07:34:35 pm

MARTHAAAAAA

Yosef

4/1/2017 04:35:22 am

I suppose you could of choosen Cats as they don't follow any one but exepct people to do as they say.

Plus in some cultures believe that cats can see throught the veil of life and death, walk between worlds and follow lines of fate/destiny.

Other animals could have been Octopuses which are excellent problem solvers. As are Ravens but personally I think ravens have been over used in fantasy books.

Pavis

3/31/2017 03:47:41 pm

Is our reality an Iteration in the Willverse?

3/31/2017 07:34:57 pm

It is not.

4/1/2017 11:02:08 am

How you you know?!

Marek

4/1/2017 11:12:23 am

because humans aren't important here. Sad face.

4/1/2017 11:34:20 am

Is there an Iteration that, like earth, has no magic system at all? And if so can they ascend past their Iteration with technology alone?

4/1/2017 02:17:40 pm

Will said earlier that the most common ilegal way access was commited by tech based scientists so I think we can assume that there are a bunch of high tech worlds or at least a few with really high populations.

4/1/2017 07:55:28 pm

@J

That's a great point. Maybe it IS a part of the extended Willverse, but our technology hasn't advanced enough to discover that fact.

You're blowing my mind, J.

@Illar

Let me put it this way: if there IS a non-magic world out there, they certainly could ascend using solely technology.

@Daniel

I meant "people experimenting and breaking the universe" was the most common way to breach your world. If you're part of an Iteration in which magic is a natural force, there's no distinction between magic and technology. Warlocks are like computer scientists.

4/1/2017 08:34:10 pm

Oh. Sorry will I miss understood that. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth

4/1/2017 01:09:33 am

Then are all of the itenaries in a completely separated existence, separated by a "something" from which the way originates, and the only connection between the 2 existences is your books.

4/2/2017 04:43:04 pm

...maybe? I'm not really sure what you're saying.

George

4/1/2017 03:59:32 am

Will, is Sha Miara the QUeen or Princess of the Ninecloud Court.
If she is 'just' the princess doesn'T that mean that there is another person in this country, who reach that cultivation rank.
It is after all common in xianxia's that the leader of clans or ruler of whole countries are stronger than the people they ruler over.

4/2/2017 04:43:24 pm

Queen. Her power is hereditary.

4/3/2017 03:54:34 am

Could you explain a little more about how people inherit power? I don't think we've seen that demonstratesd yet

4/3/2017 05:30:28 am

So, whenever the current Queen(maybe King) of the Ninecloud Country decides to step down from her position in order for another person to replace her, she gives up her power, and transfers it to her successor?
If that is the case, what would happen if she dies before transferring it? Did she mark her successor at some point, thus ordering her power to travel to said person, and letting her absorb it, in case of her demise.

Does the successor has to meet a certain standard, in order to be able to inherit the power? I would imagine a copper, who were to try to take such an enormous amount of energy into himself, would..., well, explode.

LeGrand

4/3/2017 12:08:32 pm

I don't know for sure, but I got the impression the power was passed through Remnants. Didn't Yerin say something about the Sword Sage's Remnant being passed down from master to student? Then, to inherit power you just have to bind the Remnant to yourself as you become Gold. But don't quote me on this.

4/3/2017 03:54:56 pm

The inheritance of power will actually be a plot point in book 4, 5, or both, so I think I'm probably going to remain vague about it for now.

Lyndrek

4/1/2017 07:52:57 am

I am totally loving this Will. Thank you for your efforts.

Can't wait for the next release! Keep up the awesome amazing work.

4/2/2017 04:43:41 pm

Thanks, Lyndrek! Glad you're enjoying it!

4/1/2017 08:07:33 am

Will, what does the Eight-Man-Empire, when they have conquered a country. Do they just take a of food and gold and move on, therefore simply going through the effort simply to show that they CAN conquer a whole country.
OR, do they take as much as they can manage to carry?

4/2/2017 04:45:08 pm

I hope to show them in action at some point, Tim, so I don't want to give too much away about how they operate.

I will say that they almost always have a specific target. They're going after a person, place, or thing that they want.

Zeussaxis link

4/3/2017 05:19:01 pm

Is the leader of the 8-man empire Cohen the Barbarian?

https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Cohen_the_Barbarian

Zeussaxis

4/3/2017 05:45:29 pm

Also, now that I lobbed that into the thread...we've talked a lot about 'realistic' worlds with scientific explanations. How about totally absurd worlds with blatant disregard for rules, such as Sir Terry Pratchett's Discworld?

I suspect I know the answer, but as one who would love to see a Celebrity Deathmatch between Brandon Sanderson and Terry Pratchett (the former coached by G.R.R Martin and the latter by Douglas Adams), I wanted to post this anyhow!

4/1/2017 11:11:40 am

If the fate of every iteration is to die this consigning the willverse to eventual destruction if the Abidan fail in their defense then why do they put so much emphasis on obeying fate?

4/1/2017 07:52:12 pm

Because the fate of each Iteration isn't to die, it's to die and be reborn. They focus on obeying and maintaining Fate to ensure a safe and healthy eventual rebirth.

4/1/2017 08:38:13 pm

Oh ok so instead of trying to subvert fate so that everywhere can live forever, and by doing so actually accelerate their demise, they decided to supervise and streamline the natural process to ensure existence continues smoothly.

4/1/2017 08:42:44 pm

That's the idea, yeah.

They're gardeners. They're trying to make sure the environment is optimal for the plants they chose.

4/1/2017 08:48:17 pm

Alright cool. Thanks for explaining that. And that was a super fast reply so thanks again

Kaileonis

4/3/2017 02:27:18 pm

Hello Will,

Thank you for such a well thought out story.

Here's my question:

So each iteration has a natural life cycle, and humans are the ones that fuel it.

Does that mean that the present, and ancient, Abidan are based from different iterations? Or their iteration are simply seem to be eternal since they have so advanced that their human presence that have access to the Way have made their iteration unnaturally healthy past their natural cycle?

4/3/2017 04:02:54 pm

Most of the first generation of Abidan were from Cradle, because its magic system encourages ascension. Nowadays, most Abidan are born in the advanced worlds they control (especially Sanctum, their headquarters). However, most "wild" Abidan still come from Cradle.

Lightsyde link

4/2/2017 09:18:45 am

Hey Will. Delightful and relaxing reading. Loving your AI logic and humanity-importance logic :p. Cheers.

I'm totally in Ozriel's camp btw. All hail!!

4/2/2017 04:46:03 pm

Thanks, Lightsyde! I'm looking forward to Ozriel's grand entrance, whenever we get to him. It's one of those scenes I've had planned for a long time.

I think you'll like him.

4/2/2017 12:18:17 pm

Hey Will is there ultimately a finite number of souls in your universe that are just constantly reincarnated or do new souls pop out of somewhere over time ? Or maybe old souls kinda split and become new souls somehow? (Kinna like cells)

4/2/2017 04:55:13 pm

Oh, this is kind of cool!

The ancient Abidan who discovered the connection between human souls* and the Way did a lot of experiments to figure out what qualified someone as human.

A lot of the experiments were horrible. They would do things like burn away sections of the brain to see how small a brain could be before it no longer had a connection to the Way.

They learned a lot this way, but the bottom line is that each soul is new. An infant starts developing a connection to the Way that gets stronger as it grows and becomes more aware, and when you die, the soul vanishes. The connection is severed.

So obviously the Abidan did experiments with resurrection; if you do what Suriel did, reverting them to their previous condition, the connection is reestablished. If you go with a more medical style of resurrection, for instance stopping and re-starting a heart, it also works...up to a point. Your body can only remain dead a certain amount of time before repairs are useless and the soul has departed.

(These parts were fun for me to write because I got to play with the science of a different universe. What tests would we try if we could measure the effect and presence of a soul?)

So...is the soul consciousness itself? Is it a mystical force that ceases to exist when you die? Does it go somewhere else?

There are theories, but even the Abidan don't know.

*(Cradle and the Abidan have two different definitions of what a soul is. The Abidan say it's the undefined property or force that connects a human's will to the Way, while the Cradle "soul" is what they would call a madra network.)

4/3/2017 03:53:37 am

Hey will, those experiments sound disturbingly similar yo how we learned about the physiology and anatomy of the brain in today's world. As a medical student you're always a little uncomfortable with some of the knowledge you have because of the way it was found. Is there a similar feeling among some of the Abidan? Like the information is useful, but they're a little guilty about how it was gained.

4/3/2017 04:01:15 pm

You've actually touched on something I'm a little nervous about, Rhys.

Because the Abidan are all people who shoulder cosmic levels of responsibility, and who often ascended from positions of great power and influence. They'll be hard people who understand how life works, and accept dark truths without blinking. However, they'll also be people with strong moral convictions and opinions.

So here's why I'm nervous: I hope I'm up to the task of conveying all that. Your question SHOULD have a wide variety of different answers, depending on the individual Abidan.

Some of them would torture mortals for answers even now, because these are critical questions that affect the structure of existence, so they're far more important than individual lives. Others would never use the information at all, because of how it was obtained, and feel very strongly that it should be redacted.

Everything is a complex situation among the Abidan, because they're all strong-willed, accomplished, intelligent individuals. With very different ideas on what is moral, immoral, or justified.

I'll need to push myself to convey that effectively.

Mike

4/3/2017 08:27:09 pm

You mention later in this chain that strong people in this universe have earned their strength and have to have a likewise strong will and conviction to get there. (Reminds me of Vallinhall. I think those travelers would feel at home in Cradle.) I was wondering... is there a point where that conviction causes a person to lose their humanity, and so connection to the way. If someone became so focused on one thing, would they become shallow enough mentally to become a living revenant?

4/2/2017 05:16:39 pm

This sounds like the set up for a war among God's. Could be epic

4/2/2017 06:11:15 pm

Could be iteration shatteringly awesome yes. But it would be unwise for any abidan to attack a man whose blade can erase entire universes from existence, you know?

Joe

4/4/2017 05:14:57 am

This isn't necessarily related to this particular post, but thinking of the immortal nature of the Abidan Court got me thinking about this. Are there any beings in any iterations that have not ascended and yet are inherently immortal (at least apart from being killed)?

The Nye are partially what made me think of this, as the Eldest Nye has evidently been around since before his world was splintered and has been living in that splinter for some time. So even if the Nye aren't immortal, are there any naturally immortal beings?

4/4/2017 07:04:29 am

Will, was the T-shirt sale a success?
How many did you manage to sell in the limited amount of time.(Can't recall how long they were available again)

4/10/2017 12:38:34 pm

The sales were fine, but I was dissatisfied with the quality of the Soulsmith T-shirts.

They didn't show up well. On any T-shirt color.

In PHOTOS the logo looks fine, and the original image file looks great. So it should have enough contrast to show up. But actually, physically on the shirt, it looks muddy and washed-out.

And then when I dealt with Teespring on it, trying to get it fixed, they said they would replace the shirts and never did.

So now I'm probably going to try again with Cafepress or someone else that isn't Teespring.

4/4/2017 11:54:16 am

So in an earlier, comment, you said that a person can only stay dead for so long before their soul departs and they can't be revived. What if they were cryogenically preserved in some sort of high tech world? Could that time the soul sticks around be extended? Or is there some sort of hard limit?

4/10/2017 12:38:53 pm

It can be extended, yes.

Jack

4/4/2017 02:29:47 pm

Hey Will couple of questions.

1) You mentioned tar each iteration has its own magic system. Does Amalgam have its own magic system seperate from the territories? Or was that the only system that world had to begin with?

2) You said that some iterations have galactic colonies. Are there aliens in these universes or are humans the only ones around?

4/4/2017 07:23:18 pm

U know what would blow my mind? If London turns out to b Ozriel.

That aside I re-read Unsouled and noticed that in case of complete system collapse a few worlds would still b protected including Asylum. I'm going on on the obvious and thinking the Elders are scary even to the Court of seven and could possibly play the same role as the Court does but for chaos.

4/4/2017 07:24:52 pm

*Typo* stupid autocorrect. I meant Lindon not London

4/10/2017 12:43:33 pm

My phone took forever to stop autocorrecting Lindon to London.

Yes, that's why Asylum is a protected world. If they get out, they're scary.

The Abidan intended it to be a temporary holding cell to imprison the Elders until they had fully corrupted the world, at which point Ozriel could destroy it.

Which wouldn't kill the Elders, but would drive them back into the void. So it was really just keeping them off the streets for a while.

Then the Emperor came along, and humanity has prospered beyond what the Abidan ever expected. That tethers the world more strongly to the Way and strengthens the prison, weakening the Elders. So Asylum has held on much longer than anyone anticipated.

The Elders, by the way, don't want to be trapped there OR cast back into the void. They want to escape into other Iterations, which is exactly what the Abidan don't want.

Back in the day, the Elders could have depopulated humanity. They didn't; they kept just enough alive to make sure the Abidan wouldn't obliterate the place while the Elders looked for a way out.

In which we ramble on.
And by we, I mean me.