Aleron Kong's "The Land: Founding" - SALE! - Will Wight, New York Times Best-Selling Author of 'Cradle'

Aleron Kong's "The Land: Founding" - SALE!

1/10/2017

For years now, I've been encouraged to be more active in promoting other independently published authors. And I haven't done it, largely because I don't even promote my own work very much, much less anybody else's. I've given people a shout-out here and there, but normally I don't even do that much.

I'm trying to get better at this, so I've been looking for some titles to promote. And after hearing enough suggestions about him online, I finally read Aleron Kong's first book, The Land: Founding.

(Which just so happens to be available on Kindle for only $0.99 even as we speak. You could pick it up for a dollar right now. WHAT A STRANGE COINCIDENCE.)

It's a LitRPG novel, which basically means it's about a guy getting transported inside of a world that works like a video game. He has to manage and explore his newfound RPG powers and abilities, including a village-building system that I found to be the most interesting part of the novel. But I could be weird.

I've read dozens of this sort of thing before, because it always seems like it would be right up my alley, but it never has been. Usually, I don't find the characters interesting and I get irritated by the amount of time they spend grinding and doing boring intro quests. I don't even enjoy that when I'm playing a video game, much less when I'm reading about one.

The Land: Founding, by contrast, kept me engaged from the beginning to the end. It keeps moving at a fluid pace, there's just enough of a plot to provide a sense of tension without taking away from the "guy freely exploring an RPG world" sensation, and the main character's quests are different enough from the usual that I stayed intrigued.

(There is literally a "Kill 5 Wolves" quest, but the context for it and the result of completing it are both somewhat unexpected. And funny, at least in my view.)

There are cons to every book, and in this case, there are really two that spring to mind. One broader than the other.

First, there's a segment in the middle with the main character battling skeletons that I found tedious. It takes place over about two chapters, whereas I probably would have wanted it summarized in a couple of pages. Not a big deal, but it stuck out, as most of the rest of the book progresses much more quickly.

Second, the book as a whole could have used a bit more time in the editing room. It's not bad, by any means--we've all read Kindle books that are much, much worse--but there are some typos, some choppy sentences, some incorrectly substituted homonyms ("where" for "wear," stuff like that). In other words, the same sort of mistakes you'd find in my own books, just...a few more of them.

I didn't find that any of that inhibited my enjoyment of the book. I liked it, I think it's a cool concept well-executed, and it made me want to try writing an overtly video-gamey book (although as I'm sure you've noticed, my books are about one balance patch short of video games already).

So if you like LitRPG as a genre and you haven't checked out Aleron Kong for some reason, give it a try. His book's on sale, I believe I mentioned. If you think you might be interested in reading a fantasy novel where the world works like a game, give it a try. And if this doesn't sound like your sort of thing but you're looking for something to read, give it a try.

It's a dollar!

-Will

96 Comments

Sean K

1/10/2017 05:55:49 pm

I also recommend "Awaken Online." It's also a LitRPG Novel, however the main character becomes a "bad guy" in the game. It really sets the premise up for a squeal which he is working on but is not out yet.

Will link

1/10/2017 06:17:52 pm

Despite enjoying The Land, I'm still not really a LitRPG guy. The closest I've gotten is the translated Korean novel Reincarnator (on the Gravity Tales website). Basically, a bored and malicious god creates a world that operates like a bloodthirsty game, so people have to kill things and turn on one another to become strong enough to kill their way through. All for that god's amusement.

If I had to write a LitRPG book, it would be closer to Reincarnator. It actually reminds me somewhat of Cradle, which is a complete coincidence because I just started reading Reincarnator last week. If I had read it earlier, Cradle might look very different today.

1/10/2017 06:18:54 pm

That was a bad summary of what the book is like. You should try reading the first two chapters.

MORBIDANGEL

1/12/2017 01:54:19 pm

Dear Will,

You need to stop reading books or doing anything else (including eating, sleeping and defecating) that slows down the progress of your writing. K, thanks!

Regards,
MorbidAngel

Jay

1/23/2017 10:12:09 am

Reincarnator is awesome, this was a really great suggestion. I'll keep reading it while we're all waiting for Blackflame.

Keep up the good work Will!

Aaron J.E.

1/10/2017 06:12:37 pm

I'm willing to contribute a dollar to try something new. For Schitzengiggles!

1/10/2017 06:14:03 pm

Let me know what you think!

Sean B.

1/10/2017 06:58:13 pm

I actually just finished all 5 books that are out in that series and I enjoyed them a lot. The problem I am having is that I started reading The Land waiting for Blackflame to come out and now I am waiting for two books instead of one.

1/11/2017 07:31:50 am

You're right. It definitely has some flaws (particularly in how blasé the main character is in everything) but it's fun enough to easily be worth a dollar.

1/11/2017 10:36:31 am

I always want the protagonist to be more invested in what's going on...but to be honest with you, I'm always struggling as a writer to make sure the protagonist has a personal, compelling reason to care about the outcome of the plot. It's hard to do unless it's baked in to your story concept, and even then it's hard to sell to the reader without resorting to "BOY LOOK HOW MUCH HE CARES, GUYS."

I'm working on that aspect of Blackflame at this exact moment, as a matter of fact. It's hard work. Which is why I'm procrastinating by answering blog comments.

Sancus

1/10/2017 07:10:11 pm

I'll give this a look, but I've read other litrpg stuff before and it seems to me that 'litrpg' usually means: 'Attempt to obfuscate poor writing with a lot of stat blocks and numbers that don't make sense because the author provides no system context at all'.

The Russian "Play to Live" series is frequently cited as a popular litrpg work and it is just riddled with that kind of garbage.

1/10/2017 09:02:00 pm

Well, the majority of any genre is crap. You just have to sift through the crap to find the stuff you like.

Like I said, though, this genre is not exactly my cup of tea. But I liked this book.

Patrick

1/11/2017 01:12:27 pm

LitRPG is actually a genre that I got super invested in, and started writing my own just before the craze. It went no where due to the main character just being flat, maybe I can change that in rewrites but man, it's a slog.
It seems to work when it's either super dark and realistic, or light and funny

1/11/2017 02:38:39 pm

Finish it, Patrick!

Get to the end of the book, even if your main character is a flat bore and there are plot holes the size of Hokkaido.

Then go back and fix everything later.

***

Of course, if you were to start over from the beginning now, I would say to design your story focused on the main concept that made you interested enough to write it in the first place.

What is it about your story that is so compelling it makes you want to tell it? What grabbed your imagination? What parts do you enjoy?

Make those the central focus of your story.

That's how you avoid writing "just another LitRPG" and end up with something unique that has your passion behind it.

It's also a great way to end up with a more interesting protagonist, because your main character should be the person with the greatest personal connection to the core of the story you're trying to tell. And the more interesting that concept is, the more interesting your protagonist will be.

This has been Story Tips by Will Wight! Tune in next week when we talk about Magic Systems and You!

Tacroy

1/10/2017 07:51:42 pm

That's an odd coincidence - I was sick this weekend so I ended up powering through most of this series in a couple of days. I just finished the fourth book a couple of hours ago and I'm debating if I want to spend real money on the fifth (since the middle two were on Kindle Unlimited).

I'm kinda mad because there's a bunch of open, unresolved plot threads that just seem to have gotten dropped. The main character is also kind of a dense twerp with moments of competency, which makes me rage inside about all the things I'd have done better than him.

I'm really undecided if I'll continue with it; I think I can see where the author is going with the plot, but there seems to be a real chance he might also just go nowhere.

Speaking of poorly edited books that have a certain spark to them though, I ended up reading this series because Amazon tends to advertise it next to The Divine Dungeon. It's not just poorly edited, it's also kinda poorly written - and yet for some reason I couldn't put it down, and reread it within a week. It might have just been the incipient fever but there's just something to that book.

It really reminds me of that Sailor Mercury / Dungeon Keeper fanfic that was floating around the Internet - warts and all.

jim

1/10/2017 08:08:52 pm

Did you like Divine Dungeon? I did, even though I recognize just how awfully it's written. Awful dialogue, entire chapters/characters dedicated to exposition and info-dumping, etc.

But for all that, it was pretty cool to root for a dungeon that spawned and upgraded monsters. I think I got really invested in the rabbits upgrading/evolving to killing machines.

1/10/2017 08:36:33 pm

It was like one of those Krispy Kreme burgers - intellectually offensive, yet oddly enthralling once you've taken a bite. All I know is that I had two of 'em and I'm waiting for the sequel almost as desperately as I'm waiting for Blackflame. (it actually made me re-read Unsouled and Soulsmith, because of the similarities between cultivation and madra circulation)

If you liked The Divine Dungeon, I can recommend the Dungeon Keeper Ami fanfic (it's that Sailor Mercury / Dungeon Keeper thing I mentioned earlier). It's incomplete and might never be finished, given that it's been ongoing for eight-ish years now, but it's in a very similar vein.

It does lean a little bit more on "how can a relatively smart person with a modern education twist video game physics to their bidding?", which is always fun. I was actually kinda hoping for something like that from The Land, honestly, given that Richter was apparently in an MD program before being whisked away, but no he ends up acting like every other self-centered asshole adventurer on the planet.

Brian S

1/16/2017 04:57:42 pm

Yeah, Divine Dungeon is one of those book you can't help liking, even though you can't put your finger on why you like it. I'd also recommend Slime Dungeon which does have a sequel and was published before Divine Dungeon. The similarities between them are large, but the differences grow in the telling. It's likely both series will head in completely different directions.

On topic, I've read Aleron Kongs books and find them to be mildly humorous and well paced. I keep reading them despite the fact that he obviously stole the majority of his magic system from Elder Scrolls has far to many loose plot threads and the titles of his books have nothing to do with the content. Anyways, they don't get better, but they don't get worse either, so if your on the fence, then all I can tell you is that Aleron is consistent and will give you more of what you've read before.

newpath

1/10/2017 07:54:51 pm

Dissenting opinion. In a later book, Kong drops this gem on the readers:

"Well, Richter thought, I'm an American. We give zero fux about anything."

Quoted verbatim. Enough said.

1/10/2017 09:04:15 pm

Like, spelled F-U-X? Is that a thing?

Karthik

2/8/2017 09:06:54 pm

Yep, I remember that line. I agree with Newpath. I found that by book five, they were unreadable. Lots of plot threads left unanswered and there's not much to like about Richter.

1/10/2017 07:58:32 pm

Does this guy actually need help? Seems like he's the most successful of the LipRPG guys...

(which, to be completely honest, in my opinion, is like being on the top of the pile of poop, writing and stylistic-wise. I don't know what it is, but the writing of LitRPG is just awful across the board. No offense to any LitRPG authors/enthusiasts here.)

1/10/2017 08:01:01 pm

Actually, Eric Nylund is writing a LitRPG book, so the across-the-board-bad-writing theme I see in LitRPG may change soon.

Or not.

If not, then it's a poisonous genre.

1/10/2017 09:10:11 pm

I can't defend LitRPG as a whole, because as I said it's not my port of call, but I enjoyed this book. And if people are enjoying a book, it's doing its job.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who would say my books are pure crap.

1/10/2017 09:05:56 pm

I mean, at what point are you so successful that you stop wanting recommendations?

I've sold more books than he has, but I'll take a shout-out from anybody.

1/11/2017 05:59:22 am

Alright, I'll take another look...

1/11/2017 06:19:17 am

Hey, I'm not trying to push you into anything, Jim. If you don't like the genre, you don't like it.
No problem here; everybody's entitled to their opinion.

I just try never to paint a whole category of books as "crap" or "worthless" or whatever. Because even if I don't enjoy it, if someone else does, then it's reaching its target audience and doing what it's intended to do.

Mahfuz

1/11/2017 03:56:14 am

Disclaimer: I've only read the first two books in the series and have already started on the third. So this is completely based on the first two, which I 4 starred on Goodreads. That said though...

Kong means well. But for someone coming straight from Cosimo Yap, the charecters seem awfully cartoonish. Also the jokes seem sometimes (most times?) a bit forced. But that's all tolerable. What isn't is that the narrative is not very RPG like. I mean the guy dies ONCE in the first two books. The power ups are absolutely hacked. And the guy doesn't grind. AT ALL. And the rewards are BS.
BUT if I read the books like a normal YA fantasy, it is a good book.

P.S: Will if you like the village building stuff, try Brent Roth. Fair warning though, his writing can get DARK. But if you can power through the first one the rest of the series is awesome

1/11/2017 06:21:46 am

Believe it or not, I love the dark stuff. I'll check it out.

And I can't comment on the later books in The Land; I only read the first. It was one of the best LitRPG titles I'd read, and it's from another indie author, so I thought it was worth a shout-out.

1/11/2017 07:45:55 am

It is worth a shout out! I liked it too. Good LitRPGs are rare, man! And foolproof ones are non-existent. You'll see what I mean if you check out Roth. I would recommend Cosimo Yap too if you have the time.
Dude, I feel guilty suggesting books to the super human writer who defies laws of space-time (LOL)

1/11/2017 10:43:09 am

I'd say a foolproof BOOK is non-existent.

I'm looking at Brent Roth now, and I'm a little hesitant. For one thing, it's an actual VR MMO instead of a game that works like one, which means that the most at stake will be...a game. I have trouble getting into stories like that. I never get past the "But this is just a game, so none of it matters" phase.

Cosimo Yap, though, his book looks very interesting. I think I might buy it right now, even though I can't allow myself to read it until I finish Blackflame. I like the concept a lot.

1/11/2017 07:28:13 pm

Roth's is... Yeah, it is a bit silly how seriously the MC takes himself. I'd say the game does have some consequences on his real life but that comes MUCH later.

The Gam3 on the other hand literally is more real than real life. So I'd say good choice and good luck!

1/16/2017 05:09:06 pm

Heh, If you like dark and gritty anarchy with all the trimmings and a strong parental advisory for things being really far from unicorns and butterflys, you might check out Brian McGoldrick. His Path of Transcendence series is everything you'd expect to see if you took a bunch of repressed teens, stuck them in a video game with lots of weapons and powers, made it so they were immortal, cut them off from the real world and took away all threat of consequences.

Lyrian

1/11/2017 04:20:22 am

Another book would be Ascend Online. Same genre, just the right mixture of complexity and action, if u know what I am saying. Second book should be out in a couple of months.

1/11/2017 06:26:03 am

I've been hearing about that one. I'll check it out.

Madeline

1/11/2017 04:42:59 am

I don't like books that need editting. The need for edits burns at my brain and makes me want to throw my Kindle out a window. And it was my grandmother's Kindle I don't want to do that.

In fact I believe we had an email chain a few years ago about one of the worst offenders and how it made me want to tear my eyes out.

1/11/2017 06:29:13 am

Well, it's not like my own books are the most beautifully polished jewels on the planet. I went through Unsouled recently and I made about 2-3 tweaks (rephrases, corrections, dialogue improvements) per page.

...but I do know what you mean. For some stories, I'm able to shut my editor soul down and just enjoy the stories. For others, I can't do it.

That's a personal thing, though, and you'll have to decide where your line is.

1/11/2017 07:45:44 am

Minimal errors which are obviously a small minority that sneaked through the editing phase are one thing. Especially when authors like you vigorously stamp them out as fans point them out to you.
Every other sentence having a typo is like ".... how is this author a published author when their grammar is this appalling?" and especially when there are so many run on sentences and fragments that entire pages would have to be rewritten to fix them. At that point it becomes curse you, author, I am going to disembowel you via Amazon review for making me read this unedited trash. And disembowel you again via Amazon review when you reply to my Amazon review asking me to be your unpaid editor because omg you didn't try at all.

If they didn't even use MS word's spell check there be problems.

1/11/2017 12:52:54 pm

I know you're right, Madeline, and I appreciate that you notice the work that goes into editing.

I'm always self-conscious about the editing in my books (about every aspect of the books, really, but the line editing issues most of all). Every time I release, I know that if I waited another few months until I could give it another pass with fresh eyes, the book would be noticeably better.

So I try never to take a holier-than-thou attitude when I'm talking about someone else's editing, because I know I've made the choice to sacrifice a layer of polish in exchange for speed. Let he who is without typos cast the first stone.

nicholas siracusa

11/17/2021 06:58:08 pm

I know that i am about 4 years late on this reply, but listening to The Land on Audible narrated by Nick Podehl makes the experience much, much better and soooo much fun. you can still hear some of the bad writing, but the narrator really helps eliminate the cringe

John

1/11/2017 05:54:33 am

I read all of the books he has out because they were on KU. They were enjoyable even though they had some major flaws (unlike the author that hosts this blog). It was one of those scenarios where the story was enjoyable despite the flaws, although I would agree it has a tendency to read like a 15 year old boy wrote it instead of the thiryish he looks to be.

1/11/2017 06:59:34 am

If you don't mind me asking:

Keeping in mind that I've only read the first book and not the next four, what about the books made you feel like a teenager wrote them?

I ask because I hear people say that a lot, about my books and others, and I'm curious to know what people think are hallmarks of teenage writing. Mainly because I've spent enough time teaching and enough time reading stories written by actual teenagers that I have a very different idea of what teenage writing sounds like than most people do, apparently.

I'm not going to say you're right or wrong, I'm just curious. I'd really like to know what readers are picking up on. Is it the video game subject matter? The simplistic plotlines? The age of the narrator?

1/11/2017 07:47:16 am

Simplistic, the-male-lead-is-perfect-women-love-him....
Ack my break is over posting this to give you a general idea more after break

1/11/2017 08:47:30 am

After reading a bit of the book, I'm struggling with the dialogue/banter between the characters.

Also forced jokes. Right in the prologue, you're thrown into video game jargon (that is fairly easy to understand, so not that big of a deal), and using that same jargon to make a joke. Right away that makes it feel like the book/dialogue is an inside joke you're not a part of. Forced jokes are pretty self-explanatory.

1/11/2017 10:13:23 am

Yeah, I almost put the forced humor as one of the cons in my review. But humor is so subjective, I didn't want to prejudice anybody against it in case it might be your cup of tea.

Also, some of the jokes land. It's not like they all miss. But when the characters are joking with each other and they all laugh, I almost always think "I'd rather you make ME laugh than the characters laugh."

But hey, most of my humor tends to be dry and tongue-in-cheek. Comedy's hard.

As for "the male-lead-is-perfect-women-love-him" and its counterpart "the-female-lead-is-perfect-men-love-her," I find those to be irritating and shallow, but not necessarily hallmarks of a young or inexperienced writer. I don't like it, I don't think it's good character development and it certainly isn't compelling romance, but it's a common characteristic among writers of many different ages and experience levels.

1/11/2017 11:22:49 am

Yeah, but young authors especially tend to fall into this trap. They want a character to have a romance, but they include literally no reason for the character's love interest to like him besides "he's the hero". The character tends to read like a self insert made by an author who feels they're ugly, boring, and not interesting to the opposite gender, and so their self insert manages to get all the women while acting like a jerk, possessing average looks/income (because there are women who are willing to overlook IsJerk, but only for one or the other of the above), and making everyone laugh at their jokes. Generally a perfect form of the young author, at least from young author's point of view of what perfect is.

1/11/2017 11:26:04 am

I'd also like to add that I don't see teenage girls publishing self insert characters in books that feel like someone young wrote them. It's always young men. The women who write bad books tend to be a bit older and fall into the "I am turning my icky fantasies into reality and you will love them" self insert category, rather than the "I am making a version of myself get all the glory" category.

1/11/2017 11:35:27 am

Also, female leads don't fall into female-lead-is-perfect-everyone-loves-her traps. They fall into female-lead-is-fragile-and-attracts-men-who-prey-on-that traps.

1/11/2017 12:39:46 pm

I'd say there's nothing more than a cosmetic difference between the male and female versions of self-insertion you've mentioned.

They're both shallow wish-fulfillment fantasies in which the characters don't earn the relationships they end up in. Seems to come from a basic human place, and I understand it. I even understand enjoying it in your books, if that's your sort of thing.

I just don't find it makes the most compelling stories.

There's always an element of wish fulfillment in fiction, and I don't think that's a bad thing: "I wish there were dragons," "It would be cool to have superpowers," "I wish I could do something significant with my life." Even "I want to be loved by beautiful women," or "I want to be loved by handsome men." Whatever.

They're practically universal fantasies: I want to be loved, I want to be important, I wish the world had more wonder, and so on and so forth. No problem with that.

The problem, in my view, is when you stop there. You're presented someone's erotic dream or power fantasy or whatever, and that's all it is. However, if you can present a story that EVOKES those universal human desires and emotions, while remaining grounded in believability and challenge...

I mean, that's the Holy Grail of storytelling.

All that to say that I don't think male and female authors fall into different traps in this regard. I think we all fall into the same trap, and it just tends to look slightly different because men and women tend to have slightly different fantasies.

Still grounded in the same desires, still the same storytelling mistakes, still expressed in virtually the same ways.

1/11/2017 07:22:00 am

For me it is usually two things, both of which are present in this book. The complexity of the characters, many of whom are one dimensional, especially as it relates to relationships and the availability of sex with multiple partners who just want to get down and who are of course beautiful and without physical flaws. The second thing is the dialogue. Much of it sounds similar to things I might have said or heard in high school before. If you actually got transported to a universe that operated like the one in his book, you probably would react very differently, even if you couldn't die. Pain is a powerful motivator.
That being said, I did enjoy them for what they are and was able to get past that. Would I be able to get past it if I was paying $5.99? Probably not.

1/11/2017 10:22:38 am

I think enjoying stories for what they are is an important skill.

I'm always irritated by reviews that say things like "This wasn't like Game of Thrones at all!"

No, of course it isn't. It's not trying to be. It's nothing like Twilight or Chicken Soup for the Soul, either, but I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Enough of that tangent: I agree with you that reading books for what they are and what they're trying to do is the best way to enjoy them.

***

"Much of it sounds similar to things I might have said or heard in high school before." - I think this is a big one, and it's interesting for me to think about as a writer. I hear this a lot, about many different books.

In my endless quest to improve the quality of my own dialogue, I want my characters to have unique and compelling voices. So it makes me think "What sounds like high school dialogue?"

There are some obvious ones, like phrases that only appear as modern colloquialisms: fantasy characters saying things like "That was a thing." or "Wow, she trashed him."

But fantasy characters don't all have to talk like it's Lord of the Rings or Shakespeare. Anachronistic phrases are completely appropriate, in my view, as long as they're consistent. And the main character in The Land is a young guy from Earth, so he's certainly going to have a modern tone to his dialogue...

I feel like I'm overthinking this.

TL;DR - You've made some interesting points, and I'm thinking about them deeply. Probably too deeply.

James J

1/13/2017 06:27:19 pm

I couldn't have said it better. I enjoy stories for what they are, I don't knit pick about grammar, and some minor plot details. If the world is imaginative enough, and the characters believable enough, I still find myself getting lost in the story. I think that is what the Fantasy Genre is all about, transporting us to another world where anything is possible. A literary drug, if you will.

1/11/2017 09:06:58 am

The reason I think LitRPG is doing fairly well is because it's filling a huge market/niche where people get to see the protagonists "level up" and get stronger. I just dislike how there are numbers and levels involved that have to get announced by an A.I or something. Also the jargon-y dialogue/jokes are pretty cringey.

That's why I think "Cradle" is doing well; you're taking the GOOD parts of LitRPG while leaving the BAD behind, namely:

Expository characters/chapters and massive info-dumping. (THANK YOU for not doing that) Readers are not stupid. We can figure out what "madra" or "chakra" or "qi" means and what "cultivating" or "circulating" or "maturing" it does without devoting like 30% of a book to it.

Tying in to that: Suspension of disbelief is broken pretty often with authors adding things like "LEVEL UP: CHOOSE NEXT SKILL TO ADVANCE" rather than letting a "skill" or whatever the character learns happen organically. IE they made a mistake and learned from it.

Perfect protagonists. Haven't gotten far in "Land" yet, but he seems pretty Marty Stu-ish so far. Won't say more about that.

I think Cradle handles all of those things beautifully. The one time where suspension of disbelief came close to breaking was in Unsouled with Suriel, but even that was acceptable, and you took her back to a narrator's position in Soulsmith.

1/11/2017 10:28:41 am

Thanks, Jim! Essentially I created Cradle as my attempt to take what I liked and leave what I didn't, although I was reacting more to translated Korean and Japanese novels with game-like systems than to English LitRPG.

One of the main things I don't like about LitRPG and similar subgenres is their tendency to be TOO much like a game. By which I mean, if this guy is just playing through an MMO, I don't care about it. There's nothing at stake here. There's no consequences for failure. I'm just reading about someone playing an RPG, but I could go play an RPG right now.

I don't particularly mind the AI announcement mechanic or the numbers or the stat sheet. It's part of the way the world works, so I can accept that as the general premise.

I still kind of want to write a story--maybe a short story--about everyday life in a world where everything is measured by a game-like system of numbers. The thing is, I don't think it would be like an actual video game at all. I think you'd have social strata based on levels, and you'd be assigned a job (or class or whatever) based on your inborn stats rather than your preference, and monsters would be strictly controlled by a societal system...

I think it would be fun.

Luke

1/11/2017 11:20:39 am

Did you know that there is a game in China that can affect jobs/rewards/etc. based on how much a "good citizen" one is? Also, it is going to be made mandatory in 2020... You could try an ever darker version of this and combine it somewhat with elements from the premises of Reincarnator.

1/11/2017 12:42:13 pm

You know, I heard about that, and I really thought it was just a Black Mirror type of thing.

It would combine well with a Reincarnator-style setup if the government backing it had authority on a cosmic scale. You have to perform tasks in real life that are reflected by rewards from the gods, which make you more able to serve society...

It would certainly be interesting. I'm getting a Red Rising vibe from it.

1/11/2017 01:13:05 pm

The comments about the government dictating what jobs you get based on your traits reminded me of the anime Psycho Pass. It has a society where everyone's "Ideal" job is determined by a central computer, and people get "arrested" for PLANING to do something bad. The system can do this by monitoring people's brain waves from devices on every street corner. The main confrontation comes from someone who's brainwave doesn't react like others and he does crimes without setting off the system.

Awesome anime, one of my top 10!

1/12/2017 07:44:22 am

That description sounds a lot like a manga(also an anime) called no game no life(English translation). The manga itself is pretty... not so good, but the idea could be tweaked to make something truly fantastic

Benjamin

1/13/2017 02:46:49 am

First off, just want to say how much I love how this plug for someone's book has turned into a great discussion about the LitRPG genre and writing in general.

I have to agree with you about the low stakes of a vr-mmo story. I'm actually smack dab in this dilemma. I had cooked up the bones of a story that was great in its own right, but adding in the vr-mmo element actually improves the story. Except for the problem you got right to the heart of- being a game instantly invalidates the protagonist's (and reader's) investment. I could discard the vr-mmo element, but I feel like if I can successfully overcome this hurdle, then I'll really have a good story to tell.

I'm not tempted to 'cheat' and got the Sword Art Online route and just say people are locked in til death or the game is beat. That's too lazy, and been done to death. I could go the Legendary Moonlight Sculptor route and use money as the prime motivator, but that also feels...shallow.

I don't know, I'll nail it down eventually. I have the reasons for people to play en masse, and spend a lot of time in the game rather than the real world. Good reasons. I just don't feel like I have a good, strong motivator for readers to feel invested in some dude who is playing a game that doesn't risk his life.

Brian C

1/11/2017 09:38:06 am

The LitRPG that has stuck out to me is "Unbound Deathlord". In my opinion its the best in the genre right now. It flows naturally and showcases the best of how the main character exploiting the game mechanics while still not breaking the rules (like how most people play games) making the character much more dynamic. It like the anime shows Log Horizon or Overlord, yes the MC is powerful but its due to him using his head and thinking instead of just raw power.

1/11/2017 10:32:35 am

I actually liked Overlord a lot, but I feel like I enjoyed the premise and the concept (and his incredibly awesome doom fortress filled with unique and colorful characters) more than the execution.

Him being more powerful than everyone else is cool, but him being SO MUCH more powerful than everyone else leaves it weak story-wise, IMO. He has very little of a goal to strive toward, and there are no obstacles that can stop him from obtaining his goal. So basically he's just...there. Doing things.

It's such a great and compelling premise that I'd like to see it attached to more of a storyline. As it is, I think it'd be more interesting to see the events of Overlord from a native villager's perspective: all of a sudden this doom fortress and its all-powerful undead wizard come out of nowhere bearing godlike magic, and the world is thrown into chaos. How do you cope?

Tom

1/11/2017 11:57:27 am

It feels to me that there is at least two style of LitRPG that have some real potential.

One of those is what I'd call "world discovery", where it is all about understanding the world and doing your best in a bad situation. The danger of this style is that that I think for it to be successful you need to make the world and character around relevant, and curb down any instinct to make the point of view character the only character with agency. I personally believe this kind of story should always be ensemble cast with rival groups that are worthy of the name, but sadly it's hard to find.

The closest of this style I could recommend is Kumo Desu Nani Ka, but that one is weird as it basically switch genre midway.

The second I would say is "Impossible Objective" story, where you learn quickly that the story is about doing something that's quasi-impossible. This style can embrace having a ridiculously effective main character simply because it establishes from the get go that being incredibly good is not enough. The term "deviation" from your stories should be applicable here.

For this style, Reincarnator is an example of something done well, as well as "The Tutorial is too hard".

1/11/2017 12:47:47 pm

I really liked Kumo-chan until the shift in the middle. Which took it from being grounded in a strong central protagonist to an ensemble of characters we don't know. I thought that was a mistake. I missed Kumo-chan too much, and I eventually stopped reading because of that.

I think you've nailed the Impossible Objective stories, but I have a question about your definition of World Discovery stories.

Because you're right that that is the second type: the protagonist is dropped into a world that works like a game and then they basically wander around "playing" the game. The Land is like that.

But what do you mean by World Discovery stories being best with ensemble casts and rival groups? I can't think of anything that fits that definition. They always tend to have protagonists that are better suited for Impossible Objective stories; i.e. impossibly powerful super-beings.

It seems to me that World Discovery stories are best when the character really does start from the bottom and explore the world as the reader does. When they know the world already, or when they get an impossibly broken cheat from the very beginning, it tends to weaken the exploration and experience element.

That said, I think a World Discovery story with an ensemble cast sounds pretty incredible, and it makes me want to write one. (Although, light spoilers, Cradle will slide more and more in an ensemble direction as I introduce more significant characters.)

1/11/2017 01:07:18 pm

A lot of LitRPG that I would term "World Discovery" begins with either the whole world turning into a game in a sort of apocalypse or by having a significant numbers of people being dropped in a world with game-like elements.

I think in those cases it's really sad that basically all characters become dependant on the main character to do anything and the stories would be much, much stronger by having groups forming and learning different 'truths' about the world, so that it really feels like trying to discover the world and not being spoonfed it.

Hell, even ones where only one character comes into such a world the denizen there could really make a story.

Oh, fuck it: Log Horizon. Log Horizon is a great example of World Discovery LitRPG.

1/11/2017 01:20:34 pm

Don't ever forget about Lindon! He is awesome (so far)!!

Well, if you do make a Cradle book without him, just let us know ahead of time and call it a "side story" so that when I say I am reading cradle #5, it's gonna have Lindon. When when I read "Young adventures of Yerrin," I will know that Lindon might not be in the book.

That said, I want to read about Yerrin as a child, hearing what she did to impress the Sword Sage, to know exactly what happened when Heaven's Glory poisioned and assassinated him and how she reacted from her perspective.

Or the Sword Sage's :P

1/11/2017 02:31:56 pm

Lindon will always be the main character, Sean, don't worry about that (unless, as you said, I decide to do some kind of spinoff). But he'll also have friends.

Tom: I see what you're saying, but I never got very deep into Log Horizon for two reasons. First, I never lost that "this is just a game" feeling that usually turns me off to LitRPG. Second, I didn't like the way the ensemble focus was executed. I only cared about the main few characters, and switching off of them lost my interest completely.

1/11/2017 06:36:30 pm

I think you missed one of my favorite expressions of the genre, though I guess it would fall under the "world discovery" subcategory.

Basically, it's the kind of Lit-ish RPG where the main characters figure out the rules, and then break the world like a dry twig by abusing them.

The problem with this is that it requires a very well defined rule set, and the audience needs to know those rules so they know how clever the main characters are being.

That's why this style of thing normally only shows up in fanfic - if someone is reading it, they're a fan of the underlying material and as such understand the rules. Examples include things like Harry Potter and the Natural 20 or Dungeon Keeper Ami.

Really, the only standalone work I can think of in this vein is the Erfworld webcomic - and it only really gets away with things because the ruleset is a pastiche of turn based strategy games.

Still, for some reason I really like all of those works (even if we're probably never going to see the end of Milo or Ami's adventures)

1/11/2017 06:45:14 pm

Erfworld is one of my favorite stories of all time. It's one of the few examples of the "genius" character archetype done well, the setting is fantastic, the conflict is interesting, and I find the whole thing compelling.

I regularly check for updates even when I know full well there are none.

Now I'm wondering who his big opponent will be after Charlie. The only one I can think of that would be even scarier would be Wanda with the Arkenpliers and control of Gobwin Knob.

1/11/2017 12:55:55 pm

Just to clarify what I meant by "things I would have said in High School", it really falls into two categories again (I am seeing a trend here). The first is that the character is very shallow in their thought process and that translates, in the book, to shallow dialogue, sort of like the person above referenced "I am an american, we give zero fux about anyone. I am not saying no one talks like that, but most that do are idiots, and this character is not portrayed like that. Second, the judgements the character makes are more consistent with a brash youngster with very little real world experience, sort of like some of the recent college grads I manage. Experience doesn't always breed caution or wisdom in great quantities, but is usually leads to some. The MC strikes me as a fairly shallow character, which is stereotypically associated with youth, mostly because there is a certain truth to it for most people.

Bryce

1/11/2017 01:42:46 pm

I tried the Land but just couldn't make it through the whole thing. The dialogue was painful at times to read. The other thing i agree with you on the whole game aspect of it. I've looked at the genre some but alot are just a game, if there is no risk of death then what is the point?

Unless something changed in The Land later in the book or so he risks very little with death, he loses some stats and could potentially damage his mind or something but that was all conjecture in the nook where i got to. Add into that the fact the book was setting him up to be ridiculously strong

I just dont see the point, but to each their own.

Faren

1/12/2017 03:30:49 pm

Would like to recommend the Land as well. As an encouragement, the first book is the worst of all five, and they get better. It's one of those few books I found where the writing overcame the editing for me. Now if you absolutely don't like "main character goes on adventures, gains power and improves his territory" stories you won't like the Land. But I enjoyed, and I especially enjoyed the humor and the dialogue as the series progressed (I feel like Kong is the first author to write correctly how guys actually talk to each other).

Kaileonis

1/12/2017 05:05:09 pm

It was a fun novel. Simple, straightforward story.
The problem with reading different novels with deep, complex stories is I end up reading into almost all information with new novels to see if it gets deeper later on, in case I reach an " aha!" Or surprise development... i did that to Cradle and Soulsmith, parsing each moment and scene. Hehe

Peter

1/12/2017 05:12:08 pm

I have read the land and thought it was pretty good but it wasn't my favorite in the genre mostly from the later books where it's not quite as good . I also saw a recommendation in here for Brent Roth I found that series very interesting despite it not being him being transported to a game he still cares about the village he's building overall I enjoyed the books it also has a bit of a one man against the world sort of theme to it

Daniel

1/13/2017 03:58:38 pm

This is actually funny, I found this author over winter break and devoured all five books in the series within a week. The series gets much better and more engaging as the series goes on and it was pretty good to begin with! Check him out, the next book comes out on Jan. 22.

1/14/2017 12:39:54 pm

Alright, I read the books.

My opinion:

The forced humor was meh throughout, but at some point, didn't notice where, it became more self aware. Sometimes. Dialogue wasn't a strong point.

However, there was a lot of action, with a unique "goal" (village strength/items). Also, he was a subtle Marty Sue; like a DnD campaign where you roll <5 until it matters where you get a 20 everytime. I'm ok with that though. I liked seeing the max potential for the "Village".

Scweeb

1/14/2017 02:34:26 pm

So here is one that is kind of LitRPG its the Daniel Black series. This is a guy gets transported from our normal world into a world of magic and gets to pick what type of magic he will use during the transfer.
When he gets to the new world he has to team up with two witches and try to save them from Ragnarok and allot of cool things happen.

1/15/2017 10:50:44 am

If you are looking for a good indie book, The Crimson Queen by Alec Hutson was the best book I have read in a long time. I couldn't put it down and finished it in a day, and it isn't short. I actually bought it after reading it because I will probably re-read it. Awesome if you are into epic fantasy.

1/15/2017 12:52:01 pm

You are absolutely right.

I just looked it up, based on your recommendation, and I'm hooked before the end of the preview.

I'm buying it right now. This is the good stuff.

I'll let you know what I think soon, but 10% in and I can't believe it only has 26 reviews. Even though it's only been out about six weeks, this should be making a splash.

If it continues to be this good, I'll do what I can to spread the word.

1/17/2017 01:28:54 pm

Best epic fantasy I've read in years. Best epic fantasy I've read from a Kindle author since Anthony Ryan's original Blood Song.

If you come across anything else THIS good, man, you've got to let me know.

1/15/2017 01:54:09 pm

You won't be disappointed. It gets better if anything.

1/16/2017 05:24:15 pm

Haven't started reading it yet, but like Will, the preview grabbed me and I'll be reading this one. Thanks for the recommendation.

1/17/2017 01:29:24 pm

I was not disappointed. It was incredible. A+.

1/16/2017 11:49:17 am

You have 2 monitors Will? I don't write novels, but my productivity went up by 2X getting a second monitor and attaching it to my laptop via hdmi.

Arenwyn

1/16/2017 02:47:23 pm

Is Ready Player One a LitRPG?

Lyndrek

1/16/2017 05:08:06 pm

Thanks for the recommendation Will, read all five books this weekend. Need more. Haha

Jim

1/16/2017 06:34:56 pm

Hey Will,

Can you release BlackFlame tomorrow? I have the day off, so I'd like to spend that time reading a good book.

Sincerely,
Jim

2/12/2017 08:10:00 pm

Jim,

I could not.

Sincerely,

Future Will

Johnny

1/17/2017 10:19:28 am

If you enjoyed this book at least a little then I think you should read two other series, 1 the gam3 is an extremely interesting and well written twist on LITRPG and the other, "dragons breach" is the only LITRPG book I have read that really lives up to the idea of this genre

john

1/17/2017 11:37:22 am

I can't even find Dragons Breach on Amazon. Who is the author?

1/18/2017 05:22:28 pm

WAG: someone put together a list of LitRPG series on Goodreads, and there's only three series with the word "dragon" in the title. Out of those three, I imagine it's the The Dragon's Wrath series since the other two options are:

something from the '90s called The Sleeping Dragon

a title called Dragon Web Online, which doesn't have enough words in the title.

Though the 90's one reminds me that Larry Niven's old Dream Park series existed, which I guess counts as LitRPG these days.

2/8/2017 08:46:36 pm

For posterity, after having read the Dragon's Wrath series, I'm 100% sure that's the title Johnny was talking about up there; there's a town named Dragon's Breach in it and it's fairly important to the books.

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